Ring Mod as VCA?

Plug in here for info tips and strategies for your Moogerfooger Analog Effects. Connect more than one for plenty of fun!
shortsleeves
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:27 am

Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by shortsleeves » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:36 am

Hi,

My Foogers' set consists of: CP-251, Freqbox, Ring Mod, Murf, MP-201 (only got it yesterday :-) I've read plenty of threads here on how to use Ring Mod as a VCA, read the Lord of the Ring Mod article, but still I seem to be missing something.

My set up for trying to use MF's a a simple mono synth is this: Korg Kaossilator Pro in external mode as a controller -> MP-201 (Firmware 2.0, factory settings, presen #34) -> CV1 -> Freq IN of the Freqbox; CV3 -> Carrier In of the Ring Mod (mix at max); OSC out of the Freqbox -> Audio In of the Ring Mod; Audio Out of the Ring Mod -> Mixer.

I seem to get a bit of some sort of Envelope, but there is the constant sound of the Freqbox's oscillator (at whatever frequency is set on the Freqbox) between notes I'm playing.

Could you, guys, help me out with this?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Lukasz
My SoundCloud: http://soundcloud.com/shortsleeves. Enjoy, and leave a comment!

User avatar
artpunk
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:25 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by artpunk » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:05 pm

The Freqbox's oscillator out is a constant output, there is no 'gate ' input on the freqbox to switch it on and off, that is why you are getting the constant sound from it between the notes you are playing. I was not aware of any method of how to use the ringmod as a VCA, but I am a relatively new (< 6 months) moogerfooger user (I better read that 'lord of the rings' article again! I didn't have a ringmod then, so probably didn't pay as much attention as I should) They are wonderful units and the more you have the closer to a modular synthesiser you get & the more fun you can have with them with increased possibilities regarding combinations/permutations of more CV in/outs - but one thing I think I've heard bemoaned in the forums was the lack of a proper VCA solution...
:?
Cheers,
Cameron

"Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST."
— Frank Zappa

cliffman
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by cliffman » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:51 pm

the LOTRM does says there might be bleed-through.

Sounds like maybe the Env coming out of the MP-201 might not be scaled right for the RM.
Try going out of the MP Env, into the CP's Mixer into the RM, then mess with the Offset and output levels on the CP mixer.
Sometimes pulling Offset a bit negative is all you need to fix this sort of thing.

Haven't tried RM as VCA myself, but I've used this
bit to fix issues with Gate/ENV between dissimilar gear lot's.

cliffman
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by cliffman » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:15 pm

Okay, I went ahead and tried it. Yup, there is always at least a tiny bit of bleed-thru.
It's most definitely not anything near to an actual VCA. As you said, 'Sort of' would describe it.
Using the CP mixer changes things a bit, but doesn't remove the bleed-thru.

Just for fun, i repeated the experiment with a Eurorack RM, and - no bleed thru.

So, I would say put this in the "Bug, or Feature?" category - given that this is a stomp-box
sound-mangler, leaving this tiny (and at least on my unit it's tiny) bleed may be the result of
a conscious decision, or not. I think if you use it as a tremolo, the bit of bleed may be nice.
But as a VCA, sadly, no.

Last time I looked, the only stomp-boxish thing that did a VCA well was the Pigtronix Attack/Sustain.
If you want to go that route, I'll sell you mine, reasonable :)

The more old-school method would be to get the fooger Low Pass Filter or equivalent, cutoff frequency
manipulation can mimic a VCA, and will add options to the Freqbox sound.

User avatar
Voltor07
Posts: 5194
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 3:04 am
Location: Waukegan, IL USA
Contact:

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by Voltor07 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:57 am

More proof that they need a dedicated VCA in the Fooger lineup. :wink:
Sub 37 #000068, Minitaur, CP-251, MF-102&103, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, Lowrey Teenie Genie.

shortsleeves
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:27 am

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by shortsleeves » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:14 am

artpunk wrote:The Freqbox's oscillator out is a constant output, there is no 'gate ' input on the freqbox to switch it on and off, that is why you are getting the constant sound from it between the notes you are playing.
Well, I sure do know that :-) The thing is, I read in several threads here and on the controllers column one could use the Ring Mod as some sort of a VCA. I seem to be getting close (following instructions from the article and forum threads), but my results are inconsistent, and I get a heavy bleed of the dry (i.e. constant) signal. That's why I'm asking.
artpunk wrote:They are wonderful units and the more you have the closer to a modular synthesiser you get & the more fun you can have with them with increased possibilities regarding combinations/permutations of more CV in/outs - but one thing I think I've heard bemoaned in the forums was the lack of a proper VCA solution...
:?
Especially since we have EG in the MP-201…

Cheers,
Lukasz
My SoundCloud: http://soundcloud.com/shortsleeves. Enjoy, and leave a comment!

shortsleeves
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:27 am

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by shortsleeves » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:38 am

Voltor07 wrote:More proof that they need a dedicated VCA in the Fooger lineup. :wink:
Well, I'm not sure about "them", but I sure do! :-)

Cheers,
Lukasz
My SoundCloud: http://soundcloud.com/shortsleeves. Enjoy, and leave a comment!

shortsleeves
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:27 am

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by shortsleeves » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:44 am

cliffman wrote:Okay, I went ahead and tried it. Yup, there is always at least a tiny bit of bleed-thru.
It's most definitely not anything near to an actual VCA. As you said, 'Sort of' would describe it.
Using the CP mixer changes things a bit, but doesn't remove the bleed-thru.
Yup, tried that as well.
cliffman wrote:So, I would say put this in the "Bug, or Feature?" category - given that this is a stomp-box
sound-mangler, leaving this tiny (and at least on my unit it's tiny) bleed may be the result of
a conscious decision, or not. I think if you use it as a tremolo, the bit of bleed may be nice.
But as a VCA, sadly, no.
Unfortunately, in my Ring Mod it's not tiny. I mean – it's not noticeable when using it as an effect unit, but, as you say, it's of no use as a VCA . Still, it's not what I bought it for :-)
cliffman wrote:Last time I looked, the only stomp-boxish thing that did a VCA well was the Pigtronix Attack/Sustain.
If you want to go that route, I'll sell you mine, reasonable :)
Oh, never heard of that one. Still, now you mentioned it and I had a moment to check them out, they're quite pricey (in the MF range), and for that money I guess I'd invest in a Doepfer Mini Case and an actual VCA for starters. Out of curiosity – how does the Pigtronix work as a VCA (I mean, how effective it is)?

Cheers,
Lukasz
My SoundCloud: http://soundcloud.com/shortsleeves. Enjoy, and leave a comment!

Vitja
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:14 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by Vitja » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:10 am

I think it is time for Moog Music to give us a decent VCA!
Otherwise I will start to seriously think about synthesizers.com modules or Modcan. Actually I already did, but I have some considerations...
Where can you get one pice of gear with that much options like CP-251 in that size?
It is handy little thing which can be used in so many applications. Sure it is limited, but it's potencial can be expended, especially with VCA with AC/DC option! I would prefer at least 3x VCA. And if you add some AD or ADSR and maybe a sort of Clock Divider/Trigger Delay and don't forget DC ring modulator, it would be wonderful.
On other hand, you can find really powerful modules especially from Modcan. But if you are ready to pay 400$ for 4 VCAs in one module.
And you need a power for that to. And when you start to think about it, you wish you could get all that in CP stile box.
Another way is to build your own. But I'm musician, not an electro engineer.

So, how about that MF106M??? or something called CP-XXX???

I used MF-102 for VCA, but that's not it. And why should I use my favorite MF for just VCA?
The only think that this thing can do really well in a VCA manner it is something I call it random texture VCA. I just run Some randomized S&H, to mixer which is there for offset and attenuator for S&H and run all that to carrier in, to get that NIN stile texture with guitar and EHX freeze. But that's all I have came across.

We need damn VCA for god sake!
Gear:Slim Phatty, Arturia Minibrute, Casio MT-600, MF-101,MF-102,MF104Z,MP-201,CP-251,Ibanez John Scofield, PRS custom 24, circuit bent Kawai R-100,Circuit Bent Roland TR-505, Boss Dr55, Akai MPK 25, Ensoniq DP/4, RME Fireface 800, tons of guitar effects.

cliffman
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by cliffman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:46 am

shortsleeves wrote:
cliffman wrote:Last time I looked, the only stomp-boxish thing that did a VCA well was the Pigtronix Attack/Sustain.
If you want to go that route, I'll sell you mine, reasonable :)
Oh, never heard of that one. Still, now you mentioned it and I had a moment to check them out, they're quite pricey (in the MF range), and for that money I guess I'd invest in a Doepfer Mini Case and an actual VCA for starters. Out of curiosity – how does the Pigtronix work as a VCA (I mean, how effective it is)?

Cheers,
Lukasz
Here's an example, from awhile ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J3j2ZoL ... UN874_8eg2

cliffman
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by cliffman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm

I used MF-102 for VCA, but that's not it. And why should I use my favorite MF for just VCA?
The only think that this thing can do really well in a VCA manner it is something I call it random texture VCA. I just run Some randomized S&H, to mixer which is there for offset and attenuator for S&H and run all that to carrier in, to get that NIN stile texture with guitar and EHX freeze. But that's all I have came across.

We need damn VCA for god sake!
Well, Moog does make a bunch of VCA's - and you can get a Slim Phatty for the price of 2 or 2.5 MoogerFoogers.

This is why I started buying Eurorack - you can get the tiny 32he case + a Doepfer A-140 ADSR for less than $300, i think.

Vitja
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:14 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by Vitja » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:21 pm

I know that, it is one of the options, but patching between euro rack jacks and 1/4 inch jacks is a pain in the ass.
I just don't have time for that on stage. Everything should be fast as possible.
It would be easiest to have Moog brand VCA.
Gear:Slim Phatty, Arturia Minibrute, Casio MT-600, MF-101,MF-102,MF104Z,MP-201,CP-251,Ibanez John Scofield, PRS custom 24, circuit bent Kawai R-100,Circuit Bent Roland TR-505, Boss Dr55, Akai MPK 25, Ensoniq DP/4, RME Fireface 800, tons of guitar effects.

shortsleeves
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:27 am

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by shortsleeves » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:56 pm

cliffman wrote:Well, Moog does make a bunch of VCA's - and you can get a Slim Phatty for the price of 2 or 2.5 MoogerFoogers.
The thing is – I already have MoogerFoogers, and I don't want/need a Slim Phatty (yet ;-) Also, I wouldn't be able to use the SP as a VCA with my Foogers, because of its lack of CV outputs.

I was wondering about Vermona Filter Lancet (http://www.vermona.com/index.php/en_filterlancet.html) – it's got a VCA as well as some sort of EG, though I'm not sure whether it's for the filter only, or the audio path too. The Filter Lancet costs about the same as MF Phaser/Freqbox/CP-251 here in Europe, so it's much less than a SP.

Cheers,
Lukasz
My SoundCloud: http://soundcloud.com/shortsleeves. Enjoy, and leave a comment!

cliffman
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by cliffman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:46 pm

Vitja wrote:I know that, it is one of the options, but patching between euro rack jacks and 1/4 inch jacks is a pain in the ass.
I just don't have time for that on stage. Everything should be fast as possible.
It would be easiest to have Moog brand VCA.
Well, i just looked -in USA $$, Doepfer goop (you don't need an ADSR)
- tiny case $140
- a-132 dual VCA $80

So, $220 USA for the lot, and you have plenty of room in the case for 1/8 -> 1/4 inch multi/ patch panel, a few people make
these, or easy to make your self. You could easily wire all the needed ins/out up as 1/4 inch. Also, you can now be addicted to Eurorack.
(PAIA also does a nice cheep VCA, so take your pick, frack or euro)

If you see MoogerFoogers as basically stomp-boxes, not having a VCA makes a great deal of sense. Us guitarists already do a pretty
good job of envelope control with just our hands. As I said, afaik _nobody_ makes a VCA stomp-box, modulo the Pigtronix one.
Except for beat-slicing, not much demand for it.

If you see MoogerFoogers as some demented way to build a modular, than sure, Moog really needs a MoogerFooger VCA, otherwise they're Just Not Serious. :)

cliffman
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Ring Mod as VCA?

Post by cliffman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:00 pm

shortsleeves wrote:
cliffman wrote:Well, Moog does make a bunch of VCA's - and you can get a Slim Phatty for the price of 2 or 2.5 MoogerFoogers.
The thing is – I already have MoogerFoogers, and I don't want/need a Slim Phatty (yet ;-) Also, I wouldn't be able to use the SP as a VCA with my Foogers, because of its lack of CV outputs.

I was wondering about Vermona Filter Lancet (http://www.vermona.com/index.php/en_filterlancet.html) – it's got a VCA as well as some sort of EG, though I'm not sure whether it's for the filter only, or the audio path too. The Filter Lancet costs about the same as MF Phaser/Freqbox/CP-251 here in Europe, so it's much less than a SP.

Cheers,
Lukasz
I am confused - I have an LP, not SP, and I am not in front of it, but if I were to attempt to use it as VCA, i would use Audio In, Audio out, and Gate In. (Of course, OSCs would have to be turned off somehow, etc)
I don't understand the need for CV out from a VCA.

You Tube does not have any Filter Lancet video, so no idea on the VCA, judged by the description on the website, i doubt it would work like that. Maybe you can try one, being in Europe. The Analogue Solutions Station X looks useful, but more expensive, at least in the USA.

Post Reply