SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

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audiosampling
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SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by audiosampling » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:00 am

When I set MAIN OUTs and SUB OUTs to the same barograph level on the output page, the SUB OUT is actually 24dB quieter than the MAIN OUT. And it so much noisier too (when one then boost it by 24dB) - it sounds like there is a classic organ leaking in the background (sort of harmonic whining) that is not present on the MAIN OUTPUT at the same level.

Is this normal?
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Skuggasveinn
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by Skuggasveinn » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:51 pm

hey!

I have the same issue with the sub outs. If i turn the volume up it's like this humming noise that comes with it. Makes the outputs totally unusable for me.

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audiosampling
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by audiosampling » Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:33 am

Glad you confirmed. Because I was wondering if something was bad with mine in particular. Another serious issue affecting such a flagship instrument then...

DLove
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by DLove » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:35 pm

Tried my subs out last night for the first time to go through another mixer so I don’t have to use my main mixer and leave the monitors off.
Yes. The noise level out of the subs is stunning. I mean that not in a good way.
Again, glad I’m not the only one.
Hope this can be remedied.

David
One - Minimoog Model D Reissue / Muse - Source - Sirin - DFAM
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synthguy
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by synthguy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:25 pm

My unit doen't behave like that. Hmmm....

I have the Master volume set at 50%, and with the sub outs set to OdB on the master volume panel, they are at the same volume output as the Main outs, and the same (low) noise floor.
If your unit behaves differently, this might be a system calibration issue.

Things are pretty gummed up everywhere during these covid times (at my work as well where we're also being threatened by California wildfires), but I firmly believe that the Moog engineers will be improving and expanding the user calibration capabilities going forward.
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Sugar
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by Sugar » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:23 am

it could be reversed pin wiring of the sub outputs, which would result in decreased signal level and increased noise.

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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by audiosampling » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:19 am

Sugar wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:23 am it could be reversed pin wiring of the sub outputs, which would result in decreased signal level and increased noise.
Yes, it could be. I got in touch with a user that got the same problem, sent the One back for replacement, and the new one he received had just the same behavior. So, I guess that if is was a pin wiring problem, Moog should have fixed it.Or... [conspiracy theory ON] they don't want us to know, and prefer to keep the fault as it is, as to not face a flood of returns. [conspiracy theory OFF].

We have no idea where the fault comes from. But it is not normal, and won't be probably fixed by software. Hence Moog's silence? Now, they are used to keep their users without feedback, not even on their own forum... So, maybe they just don't care...

synthguy
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by synthguy » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:18 pm

If the Sub Outs are reversed in phase, that won't have *any* effect on the volume or sound quality at all.

The only time it will have an effect is if you send the same preset out of the Mains and the Subs, and mix the two together at about the same volume levels on your mixer. Then, the opposite phases will try to cancel each other, and cause a volume drop, or a comb filtering effect, kind of like a frozen flange sound.
This is not how someone would typically use this, however.

If you have a situation where you must mix the same presets together from the Main and Sub outs and you're experiencing an out of phase situation, you can rewire your balanced Sub output cables by swapping the Tip and Ring connections at ONE END of the cable, and this will swap the phase. This won't work of course if you're using unbalanced guitar cables to plug things in.
Better quality mixers (well, better than mine, at least) often have a phase switch on the input channels which will accomplish the same thing.

The meter graphic for the Master Volume knob is *not* an output level indicator, it just shows the position of the knob on the front panel.
If your Master Volume is set to noon (50% on the graphic meter), and the Sub Output is set to 0 dB, then the two should be about the same volume.

If not, then it's likely a calibration issue, but probably not a hardware problem.
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Sugar
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by Sugar » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:20 am

synthguy wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:18 pm If the Sub Outs are reversed in phase, that won't have *any* effect on the volume or sound quality at all.
I don't mean phase reversal. The xlr connectors have 3 pins (signal, inverted signal, ground). If you swap the ground pin with any of the signal pins, you'll get weaker signal and more noise.

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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by synthguy » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:36 am

There's no hand wiring to any of the connectors inside the Moog One.
Like just about everything made these days, all connectors are on a PC board, and the boards are interconnected via flat flexi cables, to make assembly faster and easier, and to eliminate any possible wiring mistakes (like this).

It could always be a set of miswired audio cables, but they would also cause problems for the Main outs if switched back and forth.

So, did any of you with this situation try the setup I described earlier?
I'm curious if you get the same results I did.
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audiosampling
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by audiosampling » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:16 am

synthguy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:36 am So, did any of you with this situation try the setup I described earlier?
I'm curious if you get the same results I did.
You are right and not. If you set the master volume to 50%, then indeed matches the signal level of the sub outputs. However, the sub outputs are noisier. Try this :

Set the sub output gain to 22dB (max) and then, master volume to 75% to match the same level. Then both outputs end up with the same gain, but the sub output has a constant whine superimposed.

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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by synthguy » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:41 pm

Wait a minute, do you actually use your ONE cranked up to those levels?

My master volume is typically set to around noon, depending on the situation, and at that level, and with the Sub Out set to 0 dB, I can switch back and forth between them, and get about the same level and noise floor from each, with no whining noises in the back ground on either. I'm using balanced cables.

I'll try cranking everything way up tonight to see if that changes things, but I could never use that level ouput in my system, and as I remember, other users have reported that the overall noise level rises as well when you get up to those settings (which makes sense).
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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by audiosampling » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:15 am

synthguy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:41 pm Wait a minute, do you actually use your ONE cranked up to those levels?
No, but SNR is relatively independent from the signal level. When you boost the output, you boost both signal and noise equally (in first approximation). And this setting I recommended is one that makes the difference between the two outs extremely audible. One is hissy/noisy/whining, the other is just a bit noisy.

So, luckily, you seem to not have the problem - but the problem is not affecting me alone (see others that acknowledged it in this thread).

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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by chefmenteur » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:23 pm

I had this problem, and verified it with Moog, before and after receiving a replacement unit that had the exact same issue. The sub outs put out less volume, but with gain added to produce the same output levels, had a much higher noise floor. In other words the signal-to-noise ratio is noisier on the sub outs, and not just by a little.

I recorded tracks using the default patch (which is fairly quiet) and you can visually see the noise in the waveforms, and the audible difference is the difference between "clean enough" and "too noisy to use on quieter tracks", so I have stopped using the sub outs altogether.

If it's as simple as 2 pins being reversed, please let me know. A special cable or adapter could be made to compensate for this issue.

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Re: SUB OUTS: so much quieter... and noisier

Post by chefmenteur » Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:27 pm


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