Noise issue, is this normal?

Polyphonic Analog Synthesizer
Iaamusic
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by Iaamusic » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:49 pm

V interesting.

Did the other Ones and yours have the same gain stages - ie balanced cables, same mixer same make up gain etc - ie its not another variable after the stereo outs?

If this is correct I'll be contacting Source too - since i emailed them audio clips and they responded saying it was normal.


Ian

MWK
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by MWK » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:36 pm

I think it would be best if Moog put out an official statement on this behaviour because I've heard it from many people. It seems like all Ones do this (I've gone through three that had this exact behavior). Many people (including myself) are confused as to why the signal is so 'hot'. I wouldn't send your unit back just yet.

Iaamusic
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by Iaamusic » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:51 pm

Agree,

I don’t want mine to go back either, I’m just taken aback with the previous post.

I’ll await a view from source and the music shop I bought it from. In the UK we have a year warranty as I recall, and I don’t want to run out of that if there’s a suspicion that there may be an hardware issue. :?

4dubs
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:07 pm
Location: Maywood, NJ, USA

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by 4dubs » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:35 pm

I received a reply from Moog's service department, and as a prior post on this forum similarly stated, Moog maintains that this is indeed normal behavior in both 8v & 16v Ones. Their claim is that 12 o'clock on the master volume knob is unity gain, and anything above that is additive. The VCA & master volume are purposely voiced high to allow for distorted sounds in lieu of a dedicated overdrive circuit. Their reply also confirmed that noise will become quite loud as the master volume knob nears it's max, even with VCA & OSC mixer levels turned down and that this is inherent to the design.
Moog: Model D reissue, Voyager PE, Sub 37, ONE 8 voice, MF-102, Minifooger Delay (x2) / DSI: Prophet 6, Pro 2, Prophet REV2 16 voice / Nord Stage 2 SW73 / Studiologic Sledge 2.0 Black / Korg: Mono/Poly, Z1 / Arturia Matrixbrute

Iaamusic
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by Iaamusic » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:54 am

The VCA & master volume are purposely voiced high to allow for distorted sounds in lieu of a dedicated overdrive circuit. Their reply also confirmed that noise will become quite loud as the master volume knob nears it's max, even with VCA & OSC mixer levels turned down and that this is inherent to the design.
Yes, that’s the Moog position. It’s an interesting design decision particularly since it’s not mentioned as a feature in the manual and I’m pretty sure it’s not been referenced in the Amos overviews either. The manual states,
MASTER VOLUME (0 to 10)
The MASTER VOLUME knob controls the MAIN L/R output level of Moog One. Higher values will have a higher volume level.
Mine is as quiet as my other synths up to 1 o’clock position, which is where it stays.
I still don’t understand how some Ones are reported as silent in such a design and that’s what concerns me. I rechecked with Source, who in fairness went back to Moog who restated the above.

I’m wondering/speculating whether “the silent Ones” are either later designs or not silent really at all?

Ian

4dubs
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:07 pm
Location: Maywood, NJ, USA

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by 4dubs » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:32 pm

Iaamusic wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:54 am


I’m wondering/speculating whether “the silent Ones” are either later designs or not silent really at all?

Ian
My 8 voice was built in August 2019, so that would be a later design. I too would suspect that there are no "silent" Ones.

Just picked up a repair from Three Wave Music and in chatting with the owner, he confirmed all Ones behave this way.
Moog: Model D reissue, Voyager PE, Sub 37, ONE 8 voice, MF-102, Minifooger Delay (x2) / DSI: Prophet 6, Pro 2, Prophet REV2 16 voice / Nord Stage 2 SW73 / Studiologic Sledge 2.0 Black / Korg: Mono/Poly, Z1 / Arturia Matrixbrute

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TabbyCatte
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Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:11 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by TabbyCatte » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:00 am

4dubs wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:35 pm
Their claim is that 12 o'clock on the master volume knob is unity gain, and anything above that is additive.
Wow that's REALLY helpful to know, I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. Thanks for sharing this.

mildwest
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:46 pm

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by mildwest » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:39 pm

I'm usually about 2-2:30 and no noise in my mixer but any higher and we start going all Jet plane.

MWK
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by MWK » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:57 am

TabbyCatte wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:00 am
4dubs wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:35 pm
Their claim is that 12 o'clock on the master volume knob is unity gain, and anything above that is additive.
Wow that's REALLY helpful to know, I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. Thanks for sharing this.
That's where I keep mine and no issues. It's more than enough volume. I don't mind the idea that they've given us the ability to drive the signal even further (even though it's not typical).

michaelroy
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Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:06 pm

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by michaelroy » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:14 pm

I guess the issue is not because of Moog. Are you using any 3rd party adapters?

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TabbyCatte
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Location: Los Angeles

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by TabbyCatte » Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:31 pm

I trust we've all seen the polyphony option in the latest FW (1.20)? From the Unison/Mono More page, if you reduce the polyphony for a Synth, only actual active voices are heard in the signal chain (removes the background noise created by voices that aren't playing). For example, on my 16, cutting it down to 8 voices results in a quieter situation. Worth a look if you haven't already!

jaybee
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:56 am

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by jaybee » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:40 am

For comparison reasons i'm providing this info:
- Moog One 16 voice, patch level 1.4.0
- Ableton Live 10.1.15
- Steinberg UR22 mkII Audio Interface
- Klotz B4PP1-0300 (Neutrik jack) Balanced TRS audio cables

Oscillators disabled in the mixer, VCA at 100%, Master Volume at 100%
AbletonMoogOneNoise.png
As you can see the peak is at -70.4db @33.9hz

For reference, normally the peak in the noise floor of the Steinberg UR22mkII is at -124db:
SteinbergUR22mkIINoiseFloor.png

jdkJake
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Location: Seminole, FL

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by jdkJake » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:35 pm

instead of the master volume at 100%, I would suggest taking the measurement again with the master volume at 50%.

This would reflect unity gain and be more representative of how folks actually use the synth. Anything above 50% starts to degrade the sound and raise the noise floor rather significantly.
—jk—

jaybee
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:56 am

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by jaybee » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:34 am

jdkJake wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:35 pm
instead of the master volume at 100%, I would suggest taking the measurement again with the master volume at 50%.

This would reflect unity gain and be more representative of how folks actually use the synth. Anything above 50% starts to degrade the sound and raise the noise floor rather significantly.
Ok - i'll have to crank up the input gain on the UR22 to compensate and maintain input level (-6db when playing INIT chord) - will do the measurement again.

NOTE: Will also add another test, because i've noticed a different sort of distracting swooshing noise being added when you enable a "Synth Effect" - especially loud with Chorus/Flanger - but it's present with most effects I think. When I enable the same effect on the "Master Effects" - it's much less.

jaybee
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:56 am

Re: Noise issue, is this normal?

Post by jaybee » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:07 pm

Static Values for the test:
UR22 MKII
- INPUT GAIN: 90% (used to be at 60%)
- noise floor: -102.0db (no input signal)
Moog One
- Master Volume: 50%
- VCA: 66.3% (Default for INIT Patch)
○ noise floor: -91.0db (VCO1 66% +11db)
○ noise floor: -90.1db (VCO1 100% +11.9db)

When playing on the Moog One - INIT PATCH - which is VCO1 enabled only to the ladder filter, with "HOLD" Enabled, PLAYING Notes - "CGC" chord on all octaves a few times we get a peak sound of:
- PEAK -16.6db (@VCO1 66%)
- PEAK -12.3db (@VCO1 100%)

Conclusion
Just the noise generated by the Moog One on 50% Master Volume and the INIT PATCH (all defaults) adds +11db to the noise floor - so now we play some keys…
When we subtract the peaks from when we're playing notes from the noise floor we get the following:
VCO1 66% --> -91.0db noise floor - 16.6db = 74.4db
VCO1 100% --> -90.1db noise floor - 12.3db = 77.8db

At best there is around 77.8db of noiseless "playing space" for my Moog One.
The VCO Level Increase introduces the least amount of noise of all, so that's something I'm certainly taking away from the testing… but I'm not sure whether 77.8 of playing space is a lot…

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