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Moog One - Not For Everybody

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Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby _DemonDan_ » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:24 pm

thealien666 wrote:...the Moog One failed to impress my friend. And knowing him for over 30 years, I can vouch for his hearing and talent at using analog synths. He told me that there was a Sequential OB6 next to the One and that he could easily switch from one to the other in his headphones. And the OB6 sounded marginally "better" than the One on similarly programmed patches. By better, he meant fuller, brighter, richer. Perhaps the One can be made to achieve the same auditory gratification levels, by tweaking and working at it, but on the OB6 it's already there from the start.

Hi thealien666,

I’ve started a new thread since none of it belongs on the Feature Request thread.
(Just feature requests there, please. It will make it easier for the engineers to see them.)

As I’ve said on other forums, there will literally be billions of people who will never buy a Moog One. And I’m pretty sure that you and your friend will be among those billions. And that truly is OK! :-)

I know that, during all of the years you’ve been writing on this forum about the possibility/impossibility of Moog making a new poly, you probably had a different idea of what that poly would (or wouldn’t) be.

And I know that Moog One is not a bunch of Minimoogs stuck together with simple audio and modulation routings. And it doesn’t sound like an OB-6 as easily, and as quickly, as an OB-6 can sound like an OB-6, etc., etc. (Just keep substituting all brands and all models of famous synths in place of OB-6.)

thealien666 wrote:Maybe I should get a Memorymoog ? Because I doubt that the One can actually sound like that, no matter how much efforts is put into it. I hope I'm wrong and that someone can "demon"strate it convincingly (see what I did there ? :D ).

You totally should get a Memorymoog. It is what will make you happy. (And, by a happy coincidence, there seems to be a lot more of them available recently;-) What I can promise is that I’m not going to create a video in an attempt to convince you *not* to buy a Memorymoog. Life is short, buy the Memorymoog!
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby thealien666 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:13 pm

Thanks Dan. Point taken.

I'll try to raise the 20K$ for a MM on eBay... :roll:
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby vwizz » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:01 am

As a 12 years long owner of an Andromeda, I think the Moog One shares the same “problem” for casual/basic users.
When I say “basic” it is not condescending: it means people who dial simple sounds: bass, brass, detuned saws or pwm.
Not people who will spend hours engineering specific and complex sounds.
In this regard, I went through different phases with my A6.
Even though I already had experience in substractive synthesis, when I got my A6, I was somehow lost in the overwhelming complexity.
At first all I could do was tweaking presets and saving.
At a certain point I got disappointed and bored and stopped using the synth.
Then I decided to dive into the user manual and give it another try.
It was a very slow process actually.
And my motivation started growing after reading advice posted by some expert users in forums (back then there was little YouTube available).
But what really changed was when I decided to start all my sounds from scratch.
And by scratch I mean with my own “init” preset, not the one provided with the machine.
I then started to really understand how the A6 worked, and, most importantly, started to get a real feel for its core sounds.
The best exercise at first was to try to imitate any synth sound I would fancy , mostly based on what I heard on YouTube.
With time I realized the synth was almost capable of anything provided enough time and tweaking.
But, retrospectively, I would NEVER have been able to dial even basic raw Oberheim sounds back then.
Mostly because I lacked the intimate understanding of the A6 sound behavior.
And that took quite a while, actually many years of practice and patience.
But now I am SO happy I did not give up.
And all along that process, my sound design and synthesis skills were so improved...

The funny thing is that in the meanwhile I read so many bad reviews regarding the A6, how “cold” and poor it sounded, a “modern” analog almost VST sounding synth... with no warmth nor life compared to the vintage poly legends...
Now I understand that most of the people who wrote those reviews were used to the old analog synths where you had a large sweet spot and not much to do sound design wise...
There is no way they could have gotten the best of the A6 in a short trial period, or even after a few months.
A synth with that complexity requires years of practice/ learning.
So now I smile when I read those bad reviews, and I enjoy the almost limitless possibilities that the synth offers, while still learning after 12 years. And I know that I am still far from the limits of that synth, but that the main obstacle here is my own imagination :)

You could probably say the same thing for the Solaris, or, more recently, the Quantum.
The common point is: many people complained about poor sound and poor demos and poor presets when those machines were released.
But to me it makes sense: you need to wait for users to get the grip and extract the best of those machines.
In any case they will never provide you quick and easy dial of monster sounds.
And for me the One belongs in that very same category.

That said, if you want immediate classic poly sounds, that synth is probably not for you.
And the P6, OB6 or vintage units are probably much more appropriate.
So , yes, as I would say from the A6, “not a synth for everybody “.

Cheers!
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby ummagumma » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:08 pm

maybe Behringer will clone the memorymoog?

:lol:
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby thealien666 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:47 am

ummagumma wrote:maybe Behringer will clone the memorymoog?

:lol:


Don't laugh. This isn't as far fetched as it would seem. Since Behringer owns the IC factory that has recently restarted the production of classic Curtis chips like the CEM3340, and 3310 used in the Memorymoog. They've already successfully and convincingly cloned the Minimoog D (called Model D), so they know how to do a ladder filter. All the ingredients are there to make a modern clone (presumably 8 voices too) at a very reasonable price point.
They're already hard at work on an Oberheim OB-Xa clone (called UB-Xa), which uses the same chips also, that should come out later in 2019.

I had expected Moog Music to do that, come out with an improved clone of their famous Memorymoog, but alas it was not to be.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby ummagumma » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:49 pm

yeah I put that smiley in there so I wouldn't get banned from this site, for even mentioning it

with all the software driving the ONE, maybe they can add a MemoryMoog emulation mode?

that would be pretty neat
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby thealien666 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:58 pm

I doubt that the hardware is capable of doing that. It's like trying to coax Minimoog D timbres out of a Voyager; mission impossible.
I even suspect that the overall timbre of the One is largely influenced by the Voyager.
Even the Grandmother sounds much more Moog than a One.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby MC » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:18 pm

vwizz wrote:That said, if you want immediate classic poly sounds, that synth is probably not for you.
And the P6, OB6 or vintage units are probably much more appropriate.
So , yes, as I would say from the A6, “not a synth for everybody “.


Heartily agree. Synths like Andromeda and M1 are not "instant gratification" tools. You're one of the few who was willing to put the work into learning the machine.

thealien666 wrote:
ummagumma wrote:maybe Behringer will clone the memorymoog?

:lol:


Don't laugh. This isn't as far fetched as it would seem. Since Behringer owns the IC factory that has recently restarted the production of classic Curtis chips like the CEM3340, and 3310 used in the Memorymoog. They've already successfully and convincingly cloned the Minimoog D (called Model D), so they know how to do a ladder filter. All the ingredients are there to make a modern clone (presumably 8 voices too) at a very reasonable price point.
They're already hard at work on an Oberheim OB-Xa clone (called UB-Xa), which uses the same chips also, that should come out later in 2019.

I had expected Moog Music to do that, come out with an improved clone of their famous Memorymoog, but alas it was not to be.


Not to start a flame thread, but I don't have a high opinion of Behringer. For me they are not an option.

I doubt that the hardware is capable of doing that. It's like trying to coax Minimoog D timbres out of a Voyager; mission impossible.
I even suspect that the overall timbre of the One is largely influenced by the Voyager.
Even the Grandmother sounds much more Moog than a One.


With the slew rate mod, I have little trouble coaxing Minimoog D timbres out of a Voyager. I have no trouble coaxing them out of a Memorymoog either.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby lushr » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:25 am

i hate my prophet 6. my mate has both ob6 and prophet 6 and the moog one seems to have taken over for him, his ears are exemplary, so i am not worried.

it’s not just about presets for “basic users” it’s about the base oscillators, filters etc, and the level of control you have to dial them in *just so*. you can be a basic user but we all have ears.

i’ve yet to bring a synth home that can beat my LP for grunt. and the minilogue is far more accessible and fun than the prophet, without the depressing price tag. plus i can bring it to gigs without having a heart attack (from risk of losing it or from carrying it).

the thing about presets is the emotional weight they carry. i knew every jupiter 8 preset before i even saw one. the nostalgia, the feeling it is “right” is hard to beat. it will be future generations that get that buzz from the moog one.

i’m not a sound designer, but i have wanted a moog poly for a long time. moog are the only company that has satisfied my ears for sounds. the fact that i’ll have the flexibility to make it sound like pretty much anything else, is just cherry on top.

just hope that by the time the aussie units ship the bugs will be out. it’s going to be emotionally difficult to deal with any disappointments after laying out twice the money i spent on my first car.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby jmcecil » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:46 pm

Although it will fall on deaf ears ...
I don't currently have a real D to compare, but I do have a Boog. The oscillators on the One are very very similar to the D. There is a slight difference in timbre in the mids (One has a touch more mids and slightly different voice in the 2ks). The Voyager is actually much much more pronounced in the low mids. The Boog has a touch more distortion at the wave transition point.

These are level matched at around - 6.8db with filters wide open. I got the voyager saw to as close to a saw as I could.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/715udtlsqprut ... n.wav?dl=0

waves.png


EDIT: I had to invert the Voyager saw .. I didn't adjust properly after the inversion, so the Voyager is actually louder .. sorry about that.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby jmcecil » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:58 pm

IMO the real sound difference is in the mixer and the filter(s). The One Ladder is voiced closer to the Voyager. I'm not sure what to compare the SVF to. It has a unique range compared to other 12db stuff I have.

Anyhow, I had no problem getting Polymoog action out of it. I posted this elsewhere, but might as well here too. All synths are M1.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby thealien666 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:10 pm

If there is one thing that I've learned over the many years of owning and playing many different synths, it's that you cannot rely solely on traces on an oscilloscope to compare the overall sounds between them. You must trust your ears instead. Because they're much better at hearing things than our eyes... :wink:

Best example of that: sometimes you might see a slight change in a waveform shape on the scope screen without hearing much difference, and sometimes you'll hear a big difference without noticing such a big change on the screen.

But then again, as you said, this will probably fall on deaf ears anyway... :lol:
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby jmcecil » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:12 am

thealien666 wrote:If there is one thing that I've learned over the many years of owning and playing many different synths, it's that you cannot rely solely on traces on an oscilloscope to compare the overall sounds between them. You must trust your ears instead. Because they're much better at hearing things than our eyes... :wink:

Best example of that: sometimes you might see a slight change in a waveform shape on the scope screen without hearing much difference, and sometimes you'll hear a big difference without noticing such a big change on the screen.

But then again, as you said, this will probably fall on deaf ears anyway... :lol:

The example was based on your statement that the oscillators were like a Voyager. They are not. They are voiced similar like a D. I also acknowledged that they sound a little different. Although your comment that it can't do "D" is not because of the oscillators, it's because of the mixer and filters. The Ladder filter however is closer to a Voyager, although not exact as far as I can tell with the spectrograms and of course using my ears. The One can do "D" for the majority of sounds ever put on a recording using a D. It just can't do those edge case, highly distorted (in a good way) and filter wide open oscillating screeches. I also had no issue getting it to Polymoog sounds. Although again, the filters are a bit different. Anyhow, enough of that. I'll go back to my One happily deaf.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby MC » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:05 pm

thealien666 wrote:If there is one thing that I've learned over the many years of owning and playing many different synths, it's that you cannot rely solely on traces on an oscilloscope to compare the overall sounds between them.


Yup. Measurements in the frequency domain reveal a lot more. A standard 'scope measures in the time domain which isn't enough.

You must trust your ears instead. Because they're much better at hearing things than our eyes... :wink:


The human ears can detect psychoacoustic audio phenomenon that can't be measured on any measurement instrument. A good example is resultant tones. Tune two VCOs a fifth apart using low harmonic waveforms (IE triangle or sine, or heavily filtered ramp). Your ears hear a pitch an octave below the fundamental. That's a resultant tone and is a trick used in pipe organs. But if you attempt to measure that pitch on a spectrum analyzer, it's not there.

It is known that Moog engineers from the RA Moog days relied on their ears more than their measurement tools. A skill not always employed.

BTW the Minitaur/Taurus synth engines can sound really DEEP with resultant tones. You'll feel it best with subwoofers.
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Re: Moog One - Not For Everybody

Postby MC » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:38 pm

BTW if you're using a spectrum analyzer app on a handheld or computer, don't accept the results as robust scientific proof. Spectrum analyzers are very dependent on the quality of the A/D conversion, which isn't very high in consumer devices like handhelds and computers (not even standalone audio converters). There's a lot more than aliasing to A/D problems.
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