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Moog One Effects

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Moog One Effects

Postby Synthient Sound » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:52 am

Hello all,
First just wanted to thank Moog for making such an amazing synth. The sound and the UI have really blown me away...it is my dream synth!

I was having some problem with the effects not working correctly and when I started seeing many others having the same problem (on Gearslutz, KVR, Facebook), I did some investigating. I must preface it by saying that 1) multiple people are experiencing the same thing, 2) I have experience with pro sound/mixers 3) own hardware and software fx units by Eventide, Strymon, Lexicon, TC, etc (basically, I'm familiar with how they work, 3) have myself built dozens of effects (fuzz, overdrives, distortion, wah, phaser, flanger, chorus, digital delay, and have even built tube amplifiers, etc). That is all just to say that I don't believe it is user error (although it is always possible!) and the experience of others back this up.

Here is what I posted on Gearslutz, but I wanted to make sure that Moog saw it. Perhaps you are already aware of the issues, but I haven't heard it mentioned nor was it in the known bugs for v1.0.1.

‭-----
Premise: chorus, flanging (modulated delay effects) and phasers (modulated phase relationship) all produce a moving Comb Filter. For the effect to sound its best, the mix between dry signal and wet should be around the same volume to have the most traditional sound and wettest without going into vibrato (mix favoring wet).

Just non-scientifically watching the meters in Logic, the bypass fx sound [fully dry] presently is at -2.3db and engaged [fully wet--100%mix and 100% FX gain] is -7.4db. It would stand to reason that best sounding 50/50 ratio is not achievable. I did this with the Flanger in the "Synth Effect" section.

edit: tried with the Master Effects. The Master FX fully wet cannot achieve the same volume as the VCA. When I matched volume (by db) the flanging sounded the best, but it is still weak. Any budget flanger pedal does better than what the One is doing right *now* (thank goodness for software updates!). I definitely think there is some sort of gain-staging and/or mix problem going on.

2nd edit: listening to the phaser fully wet (mix 100%, gain 100%) on synth effect, it seems to have dry mixed in. A fully wet phaser shifter sounds like vibrato. This sounds like a regularly mixed phaser, but the volume is way dropped compared to bypass.

3rd edit: I dialed up an Eventide Hall with 1500ms pre-delay (100% send, 100% gain and 0% VCA) to see if wet and it seems to be working correctly, so I think this is a software issue with just the Moog effects.
-----

It seems as though there might be a gain-staging problem with the effects and also a problem with the wet digital signal carrying a dry with it in some instances.

If Moog could confirm there is a problem it would be really appreciated and I'd let like to let the others know. I'm so glad the effects were added and I'm looking forward to using them. Thanks to Amos and the gang for being so transparent and for letting us know what is coming--and for the quick updates you all have been doing! :D

thanks,
Cryss (Synthient Sound)
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby conradk » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:10 pm

Thanks for the detailed write-up Cryss - and appreciate your YouTube channel coverage of the Moog One as well. 8)
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby PhilAiken » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:51 pm

Synthient Sound wrote:Hello all,

2nd edit: listening to the phaser fully wet (mix 100%, gain 100%) on synth effect, it seems to have dry mixed in. A fully wet phaser shifter sounds like vibrato. This sounds like a regularly mixed phaser, but the volume is way dropped compared to bypass.


Excellent and very thorough post. I know that adds little to the conversation......but wanted to say thanks.
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby Synthient Sound » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:46 pm

Thanks guys. I'm already in love with the raw sound of the Moog One...can't wait for these bugs to be fixed so we can really utilize the effects. I'm really glad Moog thought to put both the synth and master effects sections in there. Hopefully, we will get a good (accurate) Leslie sim in there down the road.
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby conradk » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:58 pm

Synthient Sound wrote:Hopefully, we will get a good (accurate) Leslie sim in there down the road.


+1 :!:
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby Iaamusic » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:28 pm

Surely a Dimension D!
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby vwizz » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:19 pm

Hi Cryss!
Any feedback from Moog so far?
Thanks!
V
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby Iaamusic » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:40 am

Check out the latest Moog firmware video (1.0.2), Amos acknowledged Cryss’s info and said they’re working on getting it sorted. I think it will be and given the Moog teams approach to responding to feedback I’m confident the One will be a true modern classic. Having pre-ordered and waiting shipment it was largely based on confidence in the Moog reputation that got me this far.

Ian
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby Synthient Sound » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:40 pm

Hey V,
I haven't heard back from them yet. As Ian said, Amos and the chat director did respond to my post during the update video, which I appreciated. I'm looking forward to the fix with much anticipation as having fx will allow us to do some very fun stuff.
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby TabbyCatte » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:35 pm

I'm definitely experiencing this. I noticed something though - the modulation effects are all in mono for me. Normally, you want modulation effects to be in stereo, even if supplied a mono input. That's why a lot of us use Chorus in the first place. But mine are all in mono, and I think this is what is contributing to the comb filtering effect that we're hearing - a mono downmix is being inadvertently performed, which if not done properly can create phase issues.

Additionally - and this is telling - the docs talk about there being a "stereo width" parameter for all the modulation effects. But, no parameter exists in any of the effect algorithms...!

So I feel like all of this is related to a disconnect in the FX mixing / busing realm.

Can anyone else confirm that their mod effects are in mono, and they are missing said "stereo width" parameter?
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby PhilAiken » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:48 pm

TabbyCatte wrote:I'm definitely experiencing this. I noticed something though - the modulation effects are all in mono for me. Normally, you want modulation effects to be in stereo, even if supplied a mono input. That's why a lot of us use Chorus in the first place. But mine are all in mono, and I think this is what is contributing to the comb filtering effect that we're hearing - a mono downmix is being inadvertently performed, which if not done properly can create phase issues.

Additionally - and this is telling - the docs talk about there being a "stereo width" parameter for all the modulation effects. But, no parameter exists in any of the effect algorithms...!

So I feel like all of this is related to a disconnect in the FX mixing / busing realm.

Can anyone else confirm that their mod effects are in mono, and they are missing said "stereo width" parameter?



The stereo width parameter is not on the effects parameters page, but on the effect type page, and has to do with the relative panning of the stereo returns of the effects (if you are set to stereo and not dual mono)
If you hear comb filtering it is quite likely that you are inadvertently mixing digital dry signal with analog dry signal, which is out of phase. It is easy to do this with most of the modulation effects, as currently constituted in 1.02. The wet dry mix for these within the effect uses the converted dry signal from which the wet signal is derived. You can avoid this phasing by shutting off the analog dry signal at the output and mixing to taste within the effect, OR by using the effects at 100% wet. There are some pros and cons to both, so whatever sounds best to you. The former gives you a more accurate wet/dry mix, and the latter keeps your basic signal analog.
Using the delays and reverbs at 100% wet is absolutely best practice, mixing to taste via the VCA, and in-effects gain. In fact the Eventides do not even have a wet dry mix. They dictate that you do it this way.
If you think you have something wrong and your effects busses are not passing stereo try a ping pong delay. The master effects are stereo in/stereo out (when set to be so) , but will vary as to how much stereo content they are generating in and of themselves. The ping pong delay is the most obvious example to check and will at least let you know if you might have a setting somewhere that is suppressing a stereo effects return.
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby _DemonDan_ » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:02 pm

TabbyCatte wrote:I noticed something though - the modulation effects are all in mono for me. Normally, you want modulation effects to be in stereo, even if supplied a mono input. That's why a lot of us use Chorus in the first place. But mine are all in mono...

Hi TabbyCatte,

You are correct. The first round of Chorus and Flanger effects are monaural.

I can't speak officially about what may be released and when; but I can say that
Moog Folks are aware that "more Stereo Out Synth Effects" is a popular request.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _
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Re: Moog One Effects

Postby TabbyCatte » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:59 pm

Thanks for the input folks - I wasn't properly subscribed to the thread, so sorry for delayed reply!

PhilAiken wrote:
The stereo width parameter is not on the effects parameters page, but on the effect type page, and has to do with the relative panning of the stereo returns of the effects


I'm aware of the bus mode setting - I'm talking about the stereo spread in the actual effect algorithm:

M1ManualSpread.jpg

That screen shot is from the docs. It shows you being able to adjust the stereo spread of the actual effect - but it doesn't exist on the instrument!

I'll give your various bussing suggestions a try though, anything to track down the combing I'm hearing.

_DemonDan_ wrote:
You are correct. The first round of Chorus and Flanger effects are monaural.


I see. Thanks for this - might I suggest updating the documentation? It made me partially crazy :lol:
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