Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

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mesoboy
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Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by mesoboy » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm

So I've just started using my subsequent 37 again after a several months, and I seem to have some weird behaviour with the arpeggiator / sequencer tempo. Everything seems fine if I switch to a preset and set an arpeggiator going. But as soon as I want to change the tempo with the Rate knob, the tempo goes really slow - as if it's the Sync is on with a really slow incoming clock. I don't have any incoming MIDI (or cables attached). The Sync light is not on (the tempo remains the same if I turn Sync on). Even if I try to set the tempo via tap tempo, it still stays really slow. I've checked the arpeggiator settings in the Preset menu and it all looks normal.
Just to add: the knob appears to function as it will change the rate of, what appears to be, the Sync setting.

It's such weird behaviour and I don't know how to remedy this. Does anyone have any ideas - or am I missing something really simple.
Thanks!

mesoboy
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by mesoboy » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm

OK - so I reinstalled the firmware (V1.2 for the Subsequent 37, and even tried V1.3.2 for the Subsequent CV) and still no luck - the tempo grinds to a glacial speed when I change the Rate knob (as if there is a clock division setting of 4 or something - I've tried changing this in the Presets menu, but nothing happens). A quick look around various other forums suggests that this isn't an isolated issue (with some users emailing Moog for a solution, with no reply). If this is the case, I find it somewhat disappointing that they've not addressed the issue.
If however this is just some user error or some weird configuration setting that I've not worked out, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.

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Montfrooij
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Montfrooij » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:34 pm

Can you see anything weird in the editor?

mesoboy
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by mesoboy » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:25 am

I've been digging a bit further. I hooked up an external MIDI clock source and switched the tempo over to Sync. I then went into the Present menu and then into the Arpeggiator sub-menu. Now when I turn the tempo knob, which should switch between the various clocks divisions I see that fully anticlockwise it is correctly displayed in the menu at 4 beats, but fully clockwise, which should correspond to 1/64 triplet beats only goes as high as dotted 1/2 beat. It's as if the tempo knob is only registering the first quarter of the values! This, I imagine, is what is happening for a non-synced tempo - so rather than going from 2 bpm to 280 bpm for a full turn of the knob, it maxes out at about 30 - 40 bpm, and hence the really slow tempo! And the moment that you touch the tempo knob, it registers this 'quarter' tempo behaviour.
I don't know whether this is a problem with the knob, or a software problem, but if I'm in the Presets menu and synced, I can access all the clock divisions by using the Fine Tune knob, when the clock division menu item is selected. This isn't ideal as I can't just change the bpm - I need to be synced to a MIDI clock source.

Any ideas as to what to do?

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Montfrooij
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Montfrooij » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:32 am

Very hard to judge just from a piece of text.
Can you make a video and share it via youtube?
I can do the same so we can compare.

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Mantrak
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Mantrak » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:48 pm

Interesting. Just got my Sub 37 from the extensive repair, official Moog shop. So it MAY be something with calibration, although I would be surprised.

Anyway, the ARP RATE is too slow only in PANEL mode, not with presets. In presets, everything is normal.

When you save panel to a preset, the rate is still slow, BUT then you can bring it back to normal by going to TAP mode and back. Unfortunately, the trick won't work in PANEL mode, there it will go into slow crawl as soon as you exit TAP mode. So, I will have to remember to go into TAP mode whenever I use PANEL mode. Which I won't.

May seem a minor issue but after all this time it is unlikely an ordinary bug, it must be something very weird. I am on M1 Big Sur so I cannot run the editor...

Anyone?

Cheers!

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Montfrooij
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Montfrooij » Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:36 am

Can you share a video showing the issue?
Does not have to be polished whatsoever. Just to see what's going on.

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Mantrak
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Mantrak » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:20 am

Here is the video: https://youtu.be/_HpYdR-nhxg (Turn captions ON!)

A correction: not only when using PANEL, the same thing happens when using any PRESET. Once you mess around with TAP tempo, the normal tempo (untapped) range goes down (becomes very slow) and cannot be restored to original range.

Video starts with faulty - slow range, then I select SYNC which does not work because nothing is connected. Then I play with TAP when I am able to get faster tempos. Then I go to one of the PRESETs with the same problem - tempo too slow.

Original presets do not demonstrate this problem so I suspect they become somehow corrupted as soon as I use TAP tempo.

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Montfrooij
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Montfrooij » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:16 am

I think I can see the problem.
It is reproducable on my S37 also.
What you need to do, is get the S37 in TAP mode.
Make sure SYNC is OFF and hold it for some seconds.
You did that, but forgot the next step :
Next, start tapping until both the sync button and the rate light are blinking.
Now you can use the rate knob to set the divider.
If you only set it in tap mode but don't tap until it blinks, BPM is set very very slow (at least, that is how it seems)

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Mantrak
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Mantrak » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:58 am

I did tap in tap mode and it works. I can also use the tempo knob while in tap mode and it goes full range. However, as soon as go back to normal mode (the SYNC light is OFF), the tempo range goes way low.

Not a huge problem as I can get the desired tempo in tap mode. But obviously, I'd prefer to have the the full range in normal mode too.

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Montfrooij
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Montfrooij » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:37 am

You did not in this video.
Or I must have missed it.
When you long press the sync button and start tapping after it is in tap mode, both the rate and the sync mode will blink.
I don't see that in the video.
If you don't do this, the tap mode gives weird results (just like you experience in the beginning of the video).
So it looks like your preset is in tap mode, but without a set BPM.
That is what I make of it.
If you want I can make a video tonight.
My S37 is not connected right now because I'm in a temporary workplace at home and I need the desk for my typing keyboard....

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Mantrak
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Mantrak » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:31 am

FINAL ANALYSIS

I was not entirely accurate. Here is what actually goes on:

https://youtu.be/0A4ICqmLZyU

Obviously once you mess up the tempo range in PANEL mode, you can never get it back to normal, since there is no prevous version you can go back to, nor you can get it to Init state.

Any ideas now? Thanks!

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Montfrooij
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by Montfrooij » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:18 pm

Thanks man.
That was very clear.

I tried it here too and got the same results.
The only way I can solve this, is to init the preset again.
That makes it behave like 'normal'.
I think what happens is that the BPM that you TAP is stored even after exiting TAP mode and the tempo knob is still behaving like a divider.
I used a metronome and it did seem to be the case.
So this is (to me) a clear bug!

DrJustice
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Re: Strange tempo behaviour - Subsequent 37

Post by DrJustice » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:47 am

There's another tempo/sync bug that may possibly be related, re. the slow tempo :

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=27742&p=163769#p161950

Anyway, the S37 seems to be ripe with sync/tempo bugs. Also when used a s a sync master it can get confused with it's own clock and goes out of sync with correctly slaved devices when moving the Tempo knob (possibly when moving it fast). For 5-6 years now Moog has been stonewalling us on the S37, making it clear that the FW is abandonware. Well at least we did finance the One for them, and all future FW efforts are likely to go there.

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