Experiencing an awful Moog Subsequent 37 bug where presets are being overwritten/duplicated by Editor VST

[brocahantas]

This just started randomly happening the other day and I'm trying to sort out if it's something I'm doing wrong or if the editor VST is to blame.

The issue is basically this: as I tap through different presets on the actual synth (eg. hit Preset 1, then Preset 2, then Preset 3) it'll randomly overwrite Preset 2 and 3 with Preset 1 so I now have multiple of the same presets with the same names, and obviously lost the presets that it overwrote.

The midi button flashes as I tap through presets which I can't remember if that's normal or not. But it seems like it might be getting some midi input as I'm changing presets that cause them to be overwritten with the previous preset I hit.

I'm not 100% sure but so far I've only been able to replicate the issue when the Moog Editor VST is on the synth's midi track in Ableton. If I delete the VST from the track and start changing presets, nothing gets overwritten/duplicated.

Is it possible that the Editor is somehow messing with my presets without me doing anything?

Obviously it's a pretty sketchy thing to troubleshoot because it's extremely easy to lose presets while doing so. So far my plan is to stop using the editor vst (or even loading it onto any channels the moog is on) and see if it still happens.

Any thoughts?

Potentially relevant info:

- Ableton 10

- Moog sending/receiving midi via USB (In: channel 1, Out: channel 1)

- Latest firmware on synth

[brocahantas]

More info after some more troubleshooting, definitely seems like the Editor VST is the cause but not sure how to fix it:

- Changing the midi "output to" channel on Ableton's external instrument DOES NOT fix the problem (which I think rules out any kind of midi feedback loop)

- Disabling "auto send presets" in the Editor VST DOES NOT fix the problem (I was wondering if that might be causing the auto-overwrites)

- Changing midi "output to" to No Output DOES fix the problem (but isn't practical since I'd still like to send midi to the synth)

- Deleting the Editor VST from the track DOES fix the problem

- And a weird fix: changing the presets slowly (pausing for one second between changing) doesn't seem to trigger any overwriting. I noticed that the red midi light flashes exactly when I hit a preset button, and a second time shortly after. It seems like if I change presets before that second flash is when the problem occurs. If I delete the Editor VST from the track, it only flashes once.

[Montfrooij]

That could explain why I have several presets that are exactly the same.
I have not experienced this myself, but then again, I have not tested it like you did.
Does it also happen with the editor app (not the VST)?
Are you on Windows or Mac?

[brocahantas]

Yep that might be it. It does happen when using the Editor VST, I think if you start double-clicking between different presets quickly.

If you want to test, take a few Init Presets (or any slots you don't care about), name them differently, and start changing between them quickly.

I'm on a mac btw.

[Montfrooij]

I will try it probably tomorrow using some own presets in a new bank. (presets that I have in my library as well)
I'm on Windows.
DAW = Reason.
I will try both VST and the stand alone app.

[Montfrooij]

No problems here.

I made a short video from my test (sorry for the bad quality, it was just with one hand with my phone)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfEqKj-f_4M

Also tested with the stand alone app. No problems.
The midi light did blink (red) but no issues.

[Montfrooij]

Ok, I also experienced this 'bug'.
I'm really not sure how to reproduce it (since it does not always do it)
I will try to find out when it happens, but it does for sure.
My solution : save all presets in the editor too.
Not only in the device.

[maus3r]

Yes, this is a nasty bug that some users experience (myself included). I hunted it down to the PRG CHANGE setting. Try to disable the SEND option (you can leave RECEIVE enabled).

I tried to debug this for some months, pulling my hair out. I finally installed Midi Ox (or something like that) to inspect the midi messages and then saw the message was incomplete (just missing some data, so an invalid message length) when the bug occurs.

Since disabling that setting I rarely have had this behavior, but now and then sometimes it does occur.

Now I only have the “ hardware disconnected” issue left, which occurs very frequently.
I wish Moog would spent some more time on the software side of things, they just seem very bad at making stable drivers (I had issues with a Sub Phatty before). If it weren’t for the great sound of the 37, it would have left my studio a long time ago.

[jonspace]

I've experienced this issue too. Following.

As a result, I now save a back up of my presets to my hard drive every time I make one. It sucks the fun out of it but this is the only way I've found to not lose my presets. Moog software is amazing when it works, but from what they said at the JUCE developer's conference, the Moog software team has probably only been focusing on Moog One and the new synths that will be derived from Moog One's OS. We're on the long-tail of the Sub lineup so its possible its a low priority for them. This is probably why they haven't released the global editor software for the Matriarch/GM line yet.

[Montfrooij]

Yes, this is a nasty bug that some users experience (myself included). I hunted it down to the PRG CHANGE setting. Try to disable the SEND option (you can leave RECEIVE enabled).

I tried to debug this for some months, pulling my hair out. I finally installed Midi Ox (or something like that) to inspect the midi messages and then saw the message was incomplete (just missing some data, so an invalid message length) when the bug occurs.

Since disabling that setting I rarely have had this behavior, but now and then sometimes it does occur.

Now I only have the “ hardware disconnected” issue left, which occurs very frequently.
I wish Moog would spent some more time on the software side of things, they just seem very bad at making stable drivers (I had issues with a Sub Phatty before). If it weren’t for the great sound of the 37, it would have left my studio a long time ago.

Thanks for the tip!