Throw me a rope

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JamesHenry
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Throw me a rope

Post by JamesHenry » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:47 pm

Just ordered a Sub 37 and I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. Band fizzled and sold all my guitar crap and I bought a Toraiz, Maschine studio and Jam over the past month. I was looking for a keyboard to integrate with the maschine studio and unfortanetly came across the Sub 37. I only say unfortunately because of the cash I'm out now. When I first s I saw it I was like cool, then I heard it in a video and was like $$$$$$$OOOOOLLLLLLDDDDD!!!!!

Wish me luck, cause I have no idea how to integrate it into Maschine and my daw. I'm a square one noob and will probably be bugging the crap out of you guys for answers so be patient with me please. To put it best. Remember that casio keyboard you got when you were 6? That's the level I'm at as far as elecronic music goes, at 46 years old. I'm kina stoked, yet bummed I did not get into this a long time ago. I feel like I'm too late and the learning curve is going to be tremendous.

That said. I'm FRICKN STOKED. My dream is to have a cabin in the woods with a barb wire fence around it and enough solar power to run this moog and enough cabbage to last me till I'm dead :D

captainkidd
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by captainkidd » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:51 am

Welcome aboard James! Well I sort of had/have the same concerns as you. I first saw the Sub 37 about a year ago and thought "Wow this is a Moog and it's relatively affordable!" But I kept telling myself that I have no business buying it because I knew next to nothing about synthesizers or playing a keyboard. But I finally caved and picked one up at a little discounted price. I've been messing around with drums for 40+ years, got a real nice V-Drum setup that I've added to over a few years but I really don't have that musical gene in me so I am not very good. I'm 55 now so I know the concerns with learning. But at least you have a good musical background so you are already light years ahead of me.

The Sub 37 was the gate drug into synths for me. Now I got quite a few different pieces of gear (Mostly Moog) and a few months back I splurged on a reissue Minimoog Model D. I still don't know of what all I am doing but I am having fun learning. Some people might think I am lucky being able to acquire all this gear which in a sense it's true but I've worked very hard for the same company for almost 40 years now so I think I finally earned to spoil myself with something.

I think you will do alright and it seems that most the members hear help out as much as they can.

Have fun!

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by stiiiiiiive » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:19 am

Weren't we put there for enjoying what life offers? :)

Welcome James :)
Last edited by stiiiiiiive on Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

JamesHenry
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by JamesHenry » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:55 am

Yeah I'm just super discouraged. Drives me nuts not knowing what I'm doing. I just want to make songs and music and to get to that point is going to take 2 years. The learning curve is out of control. I just don't know how people know so much. It gets me to the point of not wanting to do it in the first place. If life was not in the way, I would be at this stuff 15 hours a day.

Now I'm not as bad off as I might sound. I have recorded my band and my music in logic for about 5 years, but this stuff with the maschine and synth stuff and midi is a whole another can of worms. I don't even know if the maschine is right for what I want to do.

What I want to do is simple in theory and I've asked a few people how to do it, but everyone is a rocket scientist and leaves me vague answers with language I don't yet understand and I'm at the point where I"m going to hire someone to help me out. I learn better by steps and hands on rather than reading text. I have to get my hands on it.

Anyhow I'm getting myself off track. I should remain happy that at least I've the opportunity to buy one of the best rigs out there as far as a synth.

That said, this is what I'm trying to accomplish

1. Use the Sub 37 in conjunction with NI Maschine, integrate it to the point where I can record what is coming out of the 37 into maschine.

2. Use the Sub 37 as a mid controller only, utilizing the keyboard only and the plugins in maschine and record.

I know that in 2016, this is probably asking a lot, and reading what I've read currently, the Maschine seems like it is not the proper tool for what I'm trying to accomplish and I might just be looking at programming drums by hand in logic, just like I have before and probably getting rid of the maschine.

Thanks guys, trying not to let this stuff get me in a sour mood.

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[email protected]
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by [email protected] » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:57 pm

Hi James,

First off congratulations to your Sub37! It's a great synth, and IMO one of the best to start with and get into sound design and learning synth stuff. Because on one hand it's rather basic and old school, and you can work with just the hardware knobs you have there. On the other hand it's modern and deep enough that you won't get bored with it, because once you have all the obvious things down, you can dive into the menus and have fun with the modulation sources and the sequencer for ages.

Regarding your questions: All you want to do is quite possible, but depending on the type of workflow you prefer, it might not be the best combination of tools to start with.

NI Maschine is way more than just a drum machine -- because on one hand it's a full blown DAW, and on the other hand it's a great sampler/sample player and VST synth host -- which means you can do about any sound you imagine with that. As a DAW it has a workflow that's more like old hardware sequencers and drum machines or Emagic Creator, which is the pre-pre-pre-predecessor of Logic. You work with patterns and scenes instead of tracks like Logic.

What I can tell you about learning is: Youtube is your friend! You find tons of tutorial videos on Maschine and Massive (included in Maschine) and also on various synths and sound design. That, plus reading the manual and spending time experimenting with the tools, helped me to get into all that. But you also have to be prepared that it is a never ending process... you can always learn something new and exciting.

Welcome to the journey!

Bass Player and Synthesist.
Sub 37 #8490 with SSQ37 Update | Virus TI2 | Elektron MD MNM A4 | Roland SE-02
Mac OS X 10.14 | Cubase Pro 10.0 | Ableton Live 9.6 | MainStage 3 | RME UFX+

JamesHenry
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by JamesHenry » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:42 pm

Thanks guys mostly getting bummed out cause I haven't mastered the maschine in the week I've owned it :mrgreen:
Now I find out there's modules for the sub37 such as delay and all that. Do any of you guys just use plugins for these type of effects, rather than the physical devices?
Man they are sure nice but expensive. I'm sort of tapped out for a bit, after buying a maschine studio + jam and a pioneer toraiz and now this :lol:

DrJustice
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by DrJustice » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:19 pm

JamesHenry wrote:...
Now I'm not as bad off as I might sound. I have recorded my band and my music in logic for about 5 years, but this stuff with the maschine and synth stuff and midi is a whole another can of worms. I don't even know if the maschine is right for what I want to do.
...

You may be at the core of things here. And is may be time for some questions:

If you know Logic already, why not continue to use it for recording? I don't use Logic myself (Cubase user here), but I'd think Logic can do the same stuff, including loop/grove -type things. Another possibility might be something like Ableton which is both more or less a tradition DAW and also a strong live/jam/groove -machine at the same time.

Is there a special reason for going with the Toraiz, Maschine studio and Jam -trio? Was it a freedom-binge after throwing out the guitars :P, or did you specifically want to try the kind of workflow it offers?

Do you have a preference for workflow? What kind of music do you plan to make, loop-based, or more linear composition?

I'm just a bit older than you, an I have used the linear type workflow (typically facilitated by Logic, Cubase, Cakewalk etc.) 'forvever', and have been thinking about other ways like pattern based hardware sequencers. The argument for would be that it would be refreshing and give a new angle for inspiration, but I keep coming back to the old way, partly because I'm not really into loop/grove -type music, but the more traditional linear structures - i.e. I'm an old fart, or something like that :lol:, and I'm not sure I want to change since the music I want to make is better facilitated by linear tools. Oh, and I'm keeping my guitars... I like the combination of guitars and with synths - yeah, I must be getting old... Your approach may be totally different, but perhaps my little anecdote may help with mapping out things in some way.

JamesHenry wrote:...
Now I find out there's modules for the sub37 such as delay and all that. Do any of you guys just use plugins for these type of effects, rather than the physical devices?
Man they are sure nice but expensive. I'm sort of tapped out for a bit, after buying a maschine studio + jam and a pioneer toraiz and now this :lol:

I like to use hardware synths and effects since that unties me from the computer, while also being useful when the times comes to do tracking. Buying used gear reduces the expenses considerably of course. If you end up finding that Maschine, Jam or Toraiz isn't the gear you need to get working, some of it could be swapped out for other synths, effects and software.

In short, as [email protected] also talked about, I think workflow is the key, and you may want to have a good think about how you want to work (or rather play - that sound more fun! Why can't we call it playflow?).

JamesHenry
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by JamesHenry » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:06 am

Well I pretty much want to make music, not just sit there with the moog. I don't know the best way. If that's moog > USB Interface > Logic and program drums and stuff and record in logic, then so be it. I don't know if the maschine is right for what I want to do because I don't have a clue and I don't know what most people do.

DrJustice
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by DrJustice » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:33 pm

Hmm... If those multiple groove/loop/pattern/sample boxes don't do it for you, why struggle with them? That's $3000 tied up and stopping you from making music. Unless you specifically want to get into the groove/loop/pattern/sample way of working, return it if you can, or sell it. Then reinvest in other gear that's usable to you (synths/outboard/plug-ins) and continue working in familiar ways with Logic, be happy and make music :)

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Kirneh Ness
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by Kirneh Ness » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:16 pm

JamesHenry wrote:That said, this is what I'm trying to accomplish

2. Use the Sub 37 as a mid controller only, utilizing the keyboard only and the plugins in maschine and record.



I have a great midi keyboard that can control maschine for you. We could make a swap? I get your Sub 37, you get my midi keyboard (it has even more that 37 keys)?

Seriously, I think you should forget about maschine for a little while, and concentrate on experimenting with the Sub 37 to start learning what it does and how it sounds. Stay away from a computer. Maschine is just an advanced vst you can program without needing an expensive first-class musical instrument. NI makes designated controllers for maschine: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/maschine/. I bet they are more suited for controlling maschine than the Sub 37 (and much cheaper).

What they don't have, on the other hand, is sound.
Guitars, Moog Grandmother, Minitaur, Slim Phatty, Moogerfoogers 101, 102, 103, 104M, 107, 108M and CP-251. Yamaha CS-15. Roland JUNO 106. DSI Tetr4. Arturia Beatstep Pro. Korg ARP Odyssey Module Rev1, microKORG XL.

JamesHenry
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by JamesHenry » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:58 pm

Yes, I'm familiar with their controllers. I was set to get one and I watched a Sub37 video and I got bit man. It's sounding to me like I"m better off using the 37 in conjunction with software for recording.

JamesHenry
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by JamesHenry » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:06 pm

DrJustice wrote:Hmm... If those multiple groove/loop/pattern/sample boxes don't do it for you, why struggle with them? That's $3000 tied up and stopping you from making music. Unless you specifically want to get into the groove/loop/pattern/sample way of working, return it if you can, or sell it. Then reinvest in other gear that's usable to you (synths/outboard/plug-ins) and continue working in familiar ways with Logic, be happy and make music :)


Well I like the stuff I have, it's just the machine I find cumbersome as far as programming through the software. I find working with my Toraiz to be more pleasurable. But it's mainly like this. I love the tone of the 37, that's why I bought it and I want to be able to make music with it. I just don't know how to go about getting to where I want to be. I appreciate the input though.

H_M_D
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by H_M_D » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:28 pm

Hello James,

After reading all the posts I thought I'd offer a different angle of approach. Given the venerable nature of this beast of a machine it is possible to create all types of sounds. Meaty bass drums, biting snares, hihats, growling basses, pleasurable leads, arps and sequences, and anything in between. It can seem daunting and all the things you hear and see that are in a different language at the moment will become clear over time. It's a personal journey that needs LOTS OF experimentation. That being said, here's my skinny;
Sit with the Moog and fiddle like there's no tomorrow.
Get an audio interface. Plug the Moog into it. Plug the audio interface into computer. Open Logic. Create tracks. Make a bass drum on the Moog (or find a preset and tweak until desired sound is found. Hit record in Logic and lay the kick drum down. Cut and drag the audio file around and line it up on the grid. Make it eight bars in length and set it to loop.
Create a snare on the Moog and do the same thing.
Create hats on the Moog and do the same thing.
Are you still with me?
After you've got your drum groove looping around you can begin to jam James. Create a bass line, a lead etc and keep building on the loop. Remember to take breaks. I'm English so I would go and boil the kettle and have a cuppa with my little finger righteously pointing skyward.
Check out the loop and begin editing. Copy and paste the loop across 3 minutes of Logics linear workface and then take some bits out and leaves bits in so it makes sonic sense - a song with an intro - verse - chorus - verse - bridge - outro - or something like that.
At this point you would've experimented with the Moog and got something to show for it! Result!

Now, you can begin to experiment with some of Loics plugins. Plop and eq on every channel. Add some delay and reverb to the lead, Sidechain the bass (through the compressor plugin) so it doesn't clash with the bass drum frequencies. Bus the drums by creating a track stack (apart from the bass drum - keep it separate) and add delay and reverb to taste. Use a compressor to glue the sound together. Experience other plugins like the distortion ones, the chorus one, ringshifter, phaser, and filter. Find sounds that you like.

Repeat the process. If you keep doing this for, I'm sorry, a year, you are going to know all types of amazing stuff and you will also know the types of plugins you like and then you can look for there hardware equivalent if you wanted to.

AND DO NOT FORGET...

Smile and tell yourself Rome wasn't built in a day! ;)

JamesHenry
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by JamesHenry » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:06 pm

Thanks man, been doing all that. Had to get rid of my moog as it's not really what I wanted as far as the music I want to produce. I returned it to get a virus desktop. Then some good news came in and I had the funds to buy it back. This track was recorded with the moog. The lower bass parts that is. The higher register synth was a plug in VST.


https://soundcloud.com/user-521853503/scientifically-inept

H_M_D
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Re: Throw me a rope

Post by H_M_D » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:37 am

No probs, mate! I know how difficult it can be.
Oof! An incredible turn of event then eh!?
I just gave your track a listen. What did you use for the kick drum?

Ive been having a lot fun with Roland's Aira gear. I know this is Moog but they do offer a couple of things that are unique to facilitate music creation. The MX-1 is a great mixer and the TR-8 does what it should - replicate classic drum machines. Regarding the MX-1, what I particularly found helpful is the ability to sidechain at a few touches of some buttons. The mastering button also has a lot of hidden parameters that can be accessed through button combinations. The more OUT THE BOX I am the happier I've become and the more I've learnt. To each their own though.

I made this after a little jam https://soundcloud.com/hismostdarxxxellent/darxxxoot
I did edit ITB just because I have some plugins that can achieve the sound I'm after.

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