Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by MRNUTTY » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:56 am

Here's what I suggest: Appoint one member to draft the question for everyone that is not confident in the terms Moog has already put in place. Ensure that it covers everyone's issues, such as replacement with 'panel mount pot', repair free of charge, etc... so everyone is accounted for. Then send it to Moog. When the answer comes back, post it here.

To me, the issue is very confused as to who is asking for what. I suspect Moog wonders the same. Until it's clear what people want changed, I don't thing anything is going to change.
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Toom
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:18 pm

Blackout wrote:
Toom wrote:
m10k wrote:The solution is simple and has already been stated. If your filter pot is faulty then contact Moog and they'll take care of it. If your filter pot is not faulty then don't contact Moog because there's no need to. Why is this so difficult for folks to understand?


Exactly! I contacted MOOG and the problem is getting resolved. It's that simple guys. If you want action from MOOG, give them a call and they'll gladly help you with whatever problem you're having with your Sub 37.

MOOG has been really helpful and I greatly appreciate it. Thanks MOOG!


the whole point of this thread really Toom is HOW is it to be resolved in the future. Another plastic pot that will just kick the can down the road a year or two? or a metal pot with the revised PCB that will fix the problem permanently.

how is Moog "resolving" the problem for you?


They are replacing my board with the latest board based on my request. Again, I think it's important to re-iterate that the plastic pots are not the problem. All other pots on the board are that exact same pot. I just requested the latest board for my replacement and that's what it is being replaced with (not sure what their official protocol is). If someone had a faulty volume pot, it wouldn't necessary be replaced with a heavy duty pot. I think they just started releasing the Sub 37s with the heavy duty pot because it feels better, I can't say for sure.

Either way, I agree with MRNUTTY, someone should formalize the concerns of the users on this post and send it to MOOG because like I said earlier on, I don't think MOOG is necessarily reading everyone's post on here. They are reading e-mails they are receiving from users that have issues with their Sub 37.

I originally posted on the forum to discuss this issue and finally just ended up e-mailing MOOG directly about it. Basically, if you don't e-mail MOOG, there's not much they can do for you. If you have any questions/issues, just e-mail them and they'll get back to you to resolve whatever problem you're having.

I think a big concern everyone is having is whether or not MOOG with replace a faulty cut off pot once their warranty expires. Otherwise, the only reason you'd contact MOOG is if your filter cutoff pot is actually faulty.

My warranty has expired, my filter cutoff is fixed, and I don't expect any other problems with my Sub 37. Moral of the story is that MOOG are not unreasonable. If you have to pay for repairs, they've set fair costs for this.

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namnibor
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by namnibor » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:10 pm

klay wrote:
namnibor wrote:I highly suggest everyone extend your warranty to have that extra 3 years of Moog Goodness backing your future, early serial or later. I just did and for $159. for three years additional is phenomenal and I do not usually buy that many warranties due to so many things built to fail, but it will give everyone *guaranteed* back-up, because until Moog comes out and formally declare they will take care of all future failing filter cutoff pots regardless of warrantee, is not the path I choose to *assume* because as it stands, a year or two down the road if mine should fail, if I did not have that extended warranty it would cost me shipping both ways, parts and labor, fees.
Just thought I'd press the importance of never assuming. Extend your warranties! :wink:


The extended warranty is only for the people who live in the US



OK. Realizing that the Moog Extended 3-Year Warranty @ $159. currently is only for USA Customers, perhaps people might consider asking Moog if they would allow only the earlier Sub 37 serial numbers, pre-filter fix, be allowed to purchase an extended warranty for this case only?! Just an idea. Postage with Insurance both ways from outside the USA would more than likely cost as much as the 3-Year Warranty, but it would be cost effective from Moog's and musician's perspectives.
Sub 37

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:49 am

Toom wrote:
They are replacing my board with the latest board based on my request.

....

My warranty has expired, my filter cutoff is fixed, and I don't expect any other problems with my Sub 37.


Thanks for starting this tread Toom! for me this is the best news. A new revised PCB and metal pot installed into a Sub37, free, with an otherwise expired warranty. Thats what i have been hoping for as a solution.

it also sets a precedent. I will expect Moog to do the same for all users Sub37 therefore also. It sounds like they are happy to do this which is great.

Would be great to hear from Moog directly that it is an official policy moving forward to put things totally at ease instead of from an owner but for me the result all i could wish for.

Thanks for letting us know Toom and if this has been the case for anyone else also then please post here.

Toom
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:34 am

I contacted MOOG before my warranty expired. I was just saying that it is now officially expired. They fixed the problem while under warranty. No official word from MOOG on post-warranty repairs but I would assume that they will be very fair with the cost of this. You're not dealing with a faceless company, the people at MOOG care about their work and their company, they're honest and helpful. That is your guarantee.

seanpark
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by seanpark » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:33 pm

Toom wrote:I think they just started releasing the Sub 37s with the heavy duty pot because it feels better, I can't say for sure.


Those smaller teal sealed pots actually have a much nicer feel IMHO. I sent my Sub37 in for a warranty repair of a different front panel issue (minor thing that didn't really affect playability) and it seems they swapped mine for the new metal-shaft big pot. I think durability has got to be the only reason for the switch.

To be clear, I like both styles of potentiometer. They both feel good, I just like the smoother feel of the sealed pots. My filter cutoff worked great before and works great now. Very happy with Moog.

Subber37
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Subber37 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:32 am

seanpark wrote:Those smaller teal sealed pots actually have a much nicer feel IMHO. I sent my Sub37 in for a warranty repair of a different front panel issue (minor thing that didn't really affect playability) and it seems they swapped mine for the new metal-shaft big pot. ..They both feel good, I just like the smoother feel of the sealed pots.


Interesting! Can TOOM give that a fair appraisal or will metal bias kick in? We could assume smoothness from a plastic/sealed unit and robustness and tougher/pro feel from the metal shaft pots. I've certainly in my time had some metal pots that may not be described as exactly smooth (or anywhere near as nice to use as I feel the Sub 37's plastic ones are) so there's pros/cons to both types. Of course, ultimately, reliability wins over small improvements (or not) in feel... sad we can't have both.

OK on with the info:

I have a 5000's serial Sub 37 built in March 2015, I've had it since late April I think so not that long. So far I've had zero filter pot problems, I'm a somewhat careful user as I am with all my gear, I'm not heavy handed, I don't do drugs then go mental on my synths (I mean I don't do drugs ever btw.. not just while synthing) while nodding my head a 1000 times a second with my sweaty cave man hands bumbling around the control panel and whacking the pots left to right... *ahem* SO I would hope that I won't ever get to see this issue at all. I don't baby the synth, I enjoy it just fine but I tend to not go mad with the filter pot, I just 'play it' as you would any filter pot, smoothly and without twisting. Sometimes I may just roll it lightly from one side (no flex) with a finger moving down... of course how anyone chooses to move their cut off pot shouldn't really be held against them (so long as they don't treat their 37 like a 6 year old treats a toy eh?).

I can see and understand the concerns of the couple of vocal posters in this thread worrying about 12 months from now, even 3 years from now (for me.. even 10 years from now as a proud owner of many older synths from the 80s I have nothing against keeping /using synths for years and I'd hope the Sub 37 could withstand years of use too... partially why we are drawn to the 'moog' brand is an expectation of a certain quality). Of course they had to cleverly design the Sub 37 to fit all that power and fun into a unit of this price that STILL has what, by most synth standards, could be called a very luxurious build quality. So things like plastic pots, SMT and other things aid in bringing in a design on budget while allowing to make a synth that goes above and beyond what people want.

I have no complaints about the control panel as it is today (well - ok one but I'll come to that in a minute), it works, it feels nice (to me; though I've never had the luxury of a Voyager or something even more boutique and well built) and for the price I'm more than happy with the feel. The keybed is my only/main complaint (feel, stiffness and uneven keys.. but that's a different thread).

It's funny that some said all these plastic pots may be destined to fail, because my volume pot recently started to get noisy at two points in it's range (failing contact) I can't believe it's oxidization already that's causing it? It's not one of my most used pots but it does get a good 'cleaning' by using it enough to not expect any problems. So to discover it's got a bit of noise, something I'd expect from a pot on an old Juno (and have had) is a bit strange. In the case of the old 80s synths (of which I've had and still have many) they are typically ALPS all metal pots, very good quality and built to last DECADES... and they pretty much do, but you'll occasionally get problems (and can buy replacements/remakes ....) I prefer to clean them out, I did this recently on a JX-3P volume pot that had been crackly for ages, before I sold it, so due to it being a good quality metal one I actually opened the pot up itself (after desoldering) and hand cleaned the wipers and plates to remove 3 decades of oxidation and dirt, using fader cleaner and whatever I needed. It worked perfectly after this and probably will for years.

The problem with the sealed ones on the Sub 37 is you won't be spraying deoxit on them (so I can't with my Volume pot - I guess) and you can't dismantle them as they are probably molded/too fragile to work on. No problems, I can solder a new one on if needs be (have done far harder things with old synths).

To get back a bit more on topic then... I do worry that in 5 years/10 years some of these plastic pots will start skipping, or will be unclean-able, and if my volume pot is already playing up then... how long before the amp decay, or the ARP speed etc? It will be a worry, and I know Moog are a great company that will try their best to help.

So... my tl;dr type post is leading to adding a vote to at LEAST allowing the general sale - at cost price or less ;) - of a replacement pot board to anyone, with or without warranty and enough supply to last the years ahead. I do not think this is unreasonable, especially given the likely failure rate of the filter knob.

Also I wonder if there was any other variance between the plastic potted 37's filter pots? I see many people complain of 'supper wobbly' pots, and honestly none of mine are wobbly, the centre notched pots are clearly lighter than the others, but even so don't feel wobbly. (I don't go around purposely wobbling pots either and don't advise anyone do that to 'check' just use them normally and if they are that bad you'd probably notice), so did they somehow reduce the 'wobble' by the time they got to the 5000s? Are those with wobbly pots random? is it purely through use/wear/age or heavy handed knocks and twisting?

I also have a polysix here that has all metal pots, bolted to the panel (hey at least Sub 37's pots are bolted to the panel too! that supports them and makes them feel nice - have you SEEN the state of a lot of the prophet 6's being released? wonky pots sticking up left and right like gravestones and that's on a £2k+ synth! so lets take the Moog thing in perspective). DSI seem to continually "get pots wrong" somehow, be it the substandard/doomed encoders of the original Prophet 08, or the lack of a bolting them on to the panel resulting in them looking like a village idiot's gaping, toothy, maw... I give moog major props for going the extra mile and using nuts on the pots, so few modern makers bother doing that.

I had some old novation rack with plastic pots, much like the Sub 37, but no bolts and THEY were wobbly... the moog feels like it's made out of granite compared to that (same with the Korg MS2000 I once had - tiny, wobbly, plastic pots...)

Of course, as said above and by some others in this thread.. the Sub 37 is a "MOOG", we expect a certain quality standard, and even while it is a lot for the money it was still a pricey mono synth.

I don't think moog should just blindly recall over 5000 synths to swap boards out, this company is a small one and we need to be fair. Likewise each of us spent upto £1300 (uk price) or maybe more, buying a Sub 37 and expecting it to last a lifetime... if a £300 ebay roland can last 30+ years with SIMPLE cheap maintenance then it's not unfair of us to expect a £1300 moog BRAND NEW and scant few months old to also last for 30 years... and in the medium long term, be supported for an obvious design flaw that WAS major enough for moog to redesign the board to prevent in future.

As a couple of others have said on the thread, all we really want is:

A. The ability to BUY a replacement board for cost <$100 seems fair should we wish to have a spare to last us into the future (or to replace an out of warranty fault). I could fit this myself in my sleep, if i had to pay a service guy labour then I may not be into this option at all (unfair). I've had to do far harder jobs on 30 year old vintage synths so, thankfully, this is at least a very simple procedure for all but the most ham-fisted among us ;)

B. The reassurance from Moog that if we have the faulty filter pot problem, regardless of warranty, they will help us out knowing it was THEIR fault. Not a user error.

It's not too hard is it? Nobody wants to put moog under or affect their profits but if they've took in millions off the sub 37 (6000 x £1000 = £6,000,000 - costs) then they ARE still in a better position than the end user who had to, in many cases, find the £1200 to put into moog with good faith. I think a non knee jerk, non panic solution would be best all round... that way the subject will get less attention outside of the moog fanatics on this forum, and prevent it spreading too far and sullying the great name of this great synth.

I do accept that, already, should one wish to sell their sub 37 on ebay they probably will get the 'is it a plastic pot' question, much like prophet 08 owners are asked 'is it the pot edition', and it's pretty unfair of the 'early adopters' to possibly be in a position to see their purchase be worth less, even if you never intend to sell it, it still feels crap to know your couldn't sell your 37 for much over half what you paid of it, so soon, based on one stupid little pot! So please moog, at least make a public/open statement that plastic pot filters are supported 'indefinitely' so that confidence is restored in your product regardless of serial number, because the less a reseller gets for his 37 will be less cash he has to put into your next synth or a voyager etc... so what goes around comes around!

Also the fact they brought the redesign in only recently begs the question... what's next for the 37 line? I mean if it was meant to be a run for only a year would they have bothered going to metal pot at this late stage? Are they in fact prepping for a 'non TE/stage' edition (that'll be cheaper AND have the metal pot! - insult and injury) ;)... I don't mind if they do, I like the looks of the TE and wouldn't want plastic end caps and blue lights personally. A pot that'll last would be a sure nice thing though.

As for my volume pot, I guess I'll wait and see but not heard anyone else mentioned it as a problem yet?

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aroom
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by aroom » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:11 pm

great post, Subber37

GregVDS
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by GregVDS » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:51 pm

Much longer than mine :-)!

Subber37
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Subber37 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:52 pm

My middle name is 'verbose' sadly...

I don't post so often but when I do, I have a plenty to say.

Apologies! :lol:

@aroom > thanks!

Chemishev
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Chemishev » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:37 am

Does anyone feel that the new filter metal pot somehow alters the sound a bit, compared to the plastic one? I don't know if that's possible at all and I'm probably imagining this, but the plastic one sounded a bit fatter to me...
Has anyone also got this feeling?

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paramnesia
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by paramnesia » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:50 am

Chemishev wrote:Does anyone feel that the new filter metal pot somehow alters the sound a bit, compared to the plastic one? I don't know if that's possible at all and I'm probably imagining this, but the plastic one sounded a bit fatter to me...
Has anyone also got this feeling?


the synth has digital control, no audio passes thru the filter pot
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MoogProg
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by MoogProg » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:30 am

paramnesia wrote:the synth has digital control, no audio passes thru the filter pot


^ :? Hmmm, I thought that pot was different than the others because audio passes through the filter pot, and that it is an analog pot not a digital encoder. e.g. we can hear stair-stepping if we slowly move the Filter via MIDI CC, but not if we slowly sweep using the pot or a footpedal.

Anyone know the facts?

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aroom
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by aroom » Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:38 am

no audio goes thru the pot

the pot is analog and goes thru an analog to digital convertor who goes to an other digital to analog convertor to control the voltage of the actual filter which is on the main circuit board. and so on for everything on the synthesizer.

by doing so, you can digitally save a preset, and still have a pure analog synthesizer

check the videos from Markus Fuller : https://www.youtube.com/user/markusfuller, especially the one about the voyager, who have the same concept

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:38 am

awsome post Subber37.

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