Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

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subby
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:47 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by subby » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:56 am

We shouldn't jump to conclusions of what Moog will or will not do BUT I recently put my Sub37 up for sale (unrelated to this) and the first question I received was whether the shaft was plastic or metal. Needless to say the vast majority of us own plastic. This is an amazing analog synth regardless if it has a metal shaft or plastic shaft and Moog has always been excellent at addressing and correcting problems.

Just my 2 cents.

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MRNUTTY
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 2:54 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by MRNUTTY » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:09 am

Well said @blackout :-)

Music is supposed to be fun*. What fun can you have with an instrument you resent in some fashion? I hope we all get what we need to make the Sub37 the success it has all the potential to be.

*- Even for you working musicians :-)
VoyagerEB, Minitaur, LittlePhattyII, 4xSlimPhatty, Sub37, MF[2x101,2x102,103,104M,105,105B,105M,2x107,108M], 3xCP251, XV351, MP201;
Virus C; SuperNova; Micro-Q, MicrowaveXT; Kronos; Eventide H3000, GTR4000, H8000FW, 5xH9; 2xLexicon300L; 2xKSP8, K2500; EX5

GregVDS
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:40 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by GregVDS » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:25 pm

Sorry for the late answer, I moved from one place to a new one yesterday. Had only internet back today :-). More place, but a lot of cardboard boxes to open and dispatch...

So...

@Mrnutty: best to post a new message, so I detect there is something new. better than update your own post. I'll update the history part with your new comment, with the date of the update.

@Everyone: I'm convinced Moog will do its utmost to have everyone happy with a functioning Sub 37. I'm sure the plastic shaft pot was choosen after thorough testing and prototyping. Maybe what was overlooked is the bigger off-axis lever/pressure the bigger knob applies to the shaft/pot ramp, having some of them to fail/fail quicker than intended. Some gentle user with good pot will never have the FFPP, some rough user with good pot will someday experience FFPP, some gentle user with bad pot will have FFPP sooner or later, some rough user with bad pot will have FFP quickly. The quality of a part often is a Gauss curve (a lot of components are ok for the job, some are bad, some are in fact extremely good, and NO ONE knows which one is the one you actually have). Parts are rated with figures such as numbers or rotations/actuations in the lifespan before failure. Look at the rotary encoders Teenage Engineering uses for their OP-1, these are MIL-spec. Great! Now look at the size, and the price! If you need MIL-spec for all the components of your Sub37, prepare yourself to pay much more than a Voyager.

My point is Moog designed an amazing mono synth, with capabilities very few if any other synth can pretend to have. And this, at a price which is not cheap, but surely not sky-high or unreachable (to call it cheap would be a tad too much from my point of view, but for the specs, it's actually a very good price tag)! A product is always a balance between costs and revenues, and one has to choose how to fit into a given cost. I don't say the SMD PP are cost cutting stuff/cheap stuff. They do the job, very well, normally. Now put a big knob on it, use it more than intended (Filter knob), choose a normal rated component, and maybe you'll have .5% of failure (not intended I mean).

Moog is too small to ruin its reputation on this. They have a name, a fanbase, they support their products and users a long time with updates/firmware/optional modifications; I'm sure given the situation, they won't ignore a user coming back with FFPP, even after warranty is out (my opinion here). We shouldn't be too worried about this, and I won't ask Moog or wait until they come and write here they will offer life support for FFPP (even if this would be amazing). Let's play with our Sub37, and the day it fails, if it fails, let's contact Moog.

In the end, everything fails, even us :-).

All the best,

Greg

subby
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:47 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by subby » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:42 am

GregVDS wrote:Sorry for the late answer, I moved from one place to a new one yesterday. Had only internet back today :-). More place, but a lot of cardboard boxes to open and dispatch...

So...

@Mrnutty: best to post a new message, so I detect there is something new. better than update your own post. I'll update the history part with your new comment, with the date of the update.

@Everyone: I'm convinced Moog will do its utmost to have everyone happy with a functioning Sub 37. I'm sure the plastic shaft pot was choosen after thorough testing and prototyping. Maybe what was overlooked is the bigger off-axis lever/pressure the bigger knob applies to the shaft/pot ramp, having some of them to fail/fail quicker than intended. Some gentle user with good pot will never have the FFPP, some rough user with good pot will someday experience FFPP, some gentle user with bad pot will have FFPP sooner or later, some rough user with bad pot will have FFP quickly. The quality of a part often is a Gauss curve (a lot of components are ok for the job, some are bad, some are in fact extremely good, and NO ONE knows which one is the one you actually have). Parts are rated with figures such as numbers or rotations/actuations in the lifespan before failure. Look at the rotary encoders Teenage Engineering uses for their OP-1, these are MIL-spec. Great! Now look at the size, and the price! If you need MIL-spec for all the components of your Sub37, prepare yourself to pay much more than a Voyager.

My point is Moog designed an amazing mono synth, with capabilities very few if any other synth can pretend to have. And this, at a price which is not cheap, but surely not sky-high or unreachable (to call it cheap would be a tad too much from my point of view, but for the specs, it's actually a very good price tag)! A product is always a balance between costs and revenues, and one has to choose how to fit into a given cost. I don't say the SMD PP are cost cutting stuff/cheap stuff. They do the job, very well, normally. Now put a big knob on it, use it more than intended (Filter knob), choose a normal rated component, and maybe you'll have .5% of failure (not intended I mean).

Moog is too small to ruin its reputation on this. They have a name, a fanbase, they support their products and users a long time with updates/firmware/optional modifications; I'm sure given the situation, they won't ignore a user coming back with FFPP, even after warranty is out (my opinion here). We shouldn't be too worried about this, and I won't ask Moog or wait until they come and write here they will offer life support for FFPP (even if this would be amazing). Let's play with our Sub37, and the day it fails, if it fails, let's contact Moog.

In the end, everything fails, even us :-).

All the best,

Greg



Well said!

Gametime
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:16 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Gametime » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:29 pm

@moog still waiting for a solution...

m10k
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:02 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by m10k » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:21 pm

The solution is simple and has already been stated. If your filter pot is faulty then contact Moog and they'll take care of it. If your filter pot is not faulty then don't contact Moog because there's no need to. Why is this so difficult for folks to understand?

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madhermit
Posts: 18
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by madhermit » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:44 pm

m10k wrote:The solution is simple and has already been stated. If your filter pot is faulty then contact Moog and they'll take care of it. If your filter pot is not faulty then don't contact Moog because there's no need to. Why is this so difficult for folks to understand?


+1000
J. Dickinson
{MF-104m, Sub37}

Toom
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:12 pm

m10k wrote:The solution is simple and has already been stated. If your filter pot is faulty then contact Moog and they'll take care of it. If your filter pot is not faulty then don't contact Moog because there's no need to. Why is this so difficult for folks to understand?


Exactly! I contacted MOOG and the problem is getting resolved. It's that simple guys. If you want action from MOOG, give them a call and they'll gladly help you with whatever problem you're having with your Sub 37.

MOOG has been really helpful and I greatly appreciate it. Thanks MOOG!

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namnibor
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:41 pm
Location: USA

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by namnibor » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:17 pm

I am a "gentle user" I guess. I am actually retired from a military job where we used encoders of all kinds all the time and we were taught from the start to respect the axis of any encoder/knob/slider, for reliability and hopefully, lifetime operation. Have never had any knob fail on my many synths and do not foresee my early #0081X Sub 37 to have it's filter pot fail just because it has a larger knob. Guitarists respect their knobs as well. The Sub 37 definitely begs to be tweaked, each and every knob...and I highly suggest everyone extend your warranty to have that extra 3 years of Moog Goodness backing your future, early serial or later. I just did and for $159. for three years additional is phenomenal and I do not usually buy that many warranties due to so many things built to fail, but it will give everyone *guaranteed* back-up, because until Moog comes out and formally declare they will take care of all future failing filter cutoff pots regardless of warrantee, is not the path I choose to *assume* because as it stands, a year or two down the road if mine should fail, if I did not have that extended warranty it would cost me shipping both ways, parts and labor, fees.

Just thought I'd press the importance of never assuming. Extend your warranties! :wink:
Sub 37

klay
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:54 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by klay » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:24 am

namnibor wrote:I highly suggest everyone extend your warranty to have that extra 3 years of Moog Goodness backing your future, early serial or later. I just did and for $159. for three years additional is phenomenal and I do not usually buy that many warranties due to so many things built to fail, but it will give everyone *guaranteed* back-up, because until Moog comes out and formally declare they will take care of all future failing filter cutoff pots regardless of warrantee, is not the path I choose to *assume* because as it stands, a year or two down the road if mine should fail, if I did not have that extended warranty it would cost me shipping both ways, parts and labor, fees.
Just thought I'd press the importance of never assuming. Extend your warranties! :wink:


The extended warranty is only for the people who live in the US

Gametime
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:16 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Gametime » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:44 pm

I pay 1800 euro's for a synth that must be survive a lifetime. ( words from moog )
Moog found a problem in the first 5800 and they changed the board.
What if the problem with the filter knob comes after the year ? Yeah right we must pay our self , and that is something i never do because moog know about the problem and they need to give the first 5800 lifetime warranty for the filter knob.
Just in case if something do happen the customer( first 5800) can breath.

Why we need to pay for extended warranty ? Yes we can pay for extended warranty but not in the eu & not for the filter knob problem.

I am still waiting for a official reply from moog before i contact them :(

klay
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:54 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by klay » Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:53 pm

Gametime wrote:I pay 1800 euro's for a synth that must be survive a lifetime. ( words from moog )
Moog found a problem in the first 5800 and they changed the board.
What if the problem with the filter knob comes after the year ? Yeah right we must pay our self , and that is something i never do because moog know about the problem and they need to give the first 5800 lifetime warranty for the filter knob.
Just in case if something do happen the customer( first 5800) can breath.

Why we need to pay for extended warranty ? Yes we can pay for extended warranty but not in the eu & not for the filter knob problem.

I am still waiting for a official reply from moog before i contact them :(


I don't think we should pay, my warranty runs out next month and I haven't had the time to play it much at all. So if I do get the problem I expect MOOG to take care of it.

m10k
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:02 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by m10k » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:11 pm

Gametime wrote:
I am still waiting for a official reply from moog before i contact them :(


Judging from this thread it sounds like you do not have a faulty filter pot, so there's literally no need to contact them. You're simply speculating that your pot COULD fail at some point. You'll come across many products in your lifetime that could fail and never do...pretty much anything electrical or mechanical. You certainly don't see a lifetime warranty on every product you buy, do you? The filter problem is happening in less than 1% of all Sub37's manufactured. It's kind of ridiculous to think that Moog will come out with some kind of official statement on numbers that low. They've already stated that if your filter pot is faulty then you should contact them and they'll sort you out. I believe that they'll stand by that statement.

I've had my Sub37 since September 2014 and have played it almost everyday since then. I've had ZERO problems with the pots...and I twist a lot of knobs. Could my filter pot fail? Yes it could, but until then I'm going to keep twisting knobs!

So, quit worrying and make some music. :D

Blackout
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:19 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:39 am

Toom wrote:
m10k wrote:The solution is simple and has already been stated. If your filter pot is faulty then contact Moog and they'll take care of it. If your filter pot is not faulty then don't contact Moog because there's no need to. Why is this so difficult for folks to understand?


Exactly! I contacted MOOG and the problem is getting resolved. It's that simple guys. If you want action from MOOG, give them a call and they'll gladly help you with whatever problem you're having with your Sub 37.

MOOG has been really helpful and I greatly appreciate it. Thanks MOOG!


the whole point of this thread really Toom is HOW is it to be resolved in the future. Another plastic pot that will just kick the can down the road a year or two? or a metal pot with the revised PCB that will fix the problem permanently.

how is Moog "resolving" the problem for you?

Gametime
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:16 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Gametime » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:54 am

Yes you are right , this is a what if threath ! What if something happen with the filter knob when the warranty is expire ?

Thats the question and that is what we wanna know.

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