Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

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seanpark
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by seanpark » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:55 pm

Let's be reasonable, folks.

@Blackout, those are all through-hole pots throughout the board. They look to be rather standard Alpha brand sealed pots (these are high-quality pots--not chosen for their price!). Any decent technician can replace a faulty pot. In fact we love such uncomplicated repairs. I charge about $40 for such work (depending on how tough it is to remove the panel PCB).

While I understand your resale concerns, they are simply not reasonable. Even if your synth is out of warranty, a $40 repair should not put you "in the red" if you decide to sell it.

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:01 pm

madhermit wrote:
Blackout wrote:Thank you Moog for responding.
Moog Music wrote:Less than 0.9% of all Sub 37s have experienced a problem with the filter cutoff control.
i dispute this figure, but regardless this is "so far"..over 600 synths!! have been returned with this problem...in less than 12 months of the synth being on the market. How many more have the problem but are just "living with it" for the time being. It is certainly the canary in the coal mine however, as you have correctly forseen...
Moog Music wrote:
Can you explain your math?
Even if we round up to 1%, and 6000 synths, that would be 60 synths, not 600. Is my math wrong?
I have a Sub37 in the 2000 range, so this involves me.
whoops madhermit...youre right i slipped on the calculator. it was 6am here. That does sound a lot less worse. However as i mentioned it is only those that have been returned, not those that have the problem and are living with it (like me)...or those that are inevitably going to have the problem, which will be 100% its just a matter of when, not "if". what we are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg...

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madhermit
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by madhermit » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:39 pm

seanpark wrote:Let's be reasonable, folks.

@Blackout, those are all through-hole pots throughout the board. They look to be rather standard Alpha brand sealed pots (these are high-quality pots--not chosen for their price!). Any decent technician can replace a faulty pot. In fact we love such uncomplicated repairs. I charge about $40 for such work (depending on how tough it is to remove the panel PCB).

While I understand your resale concerns, they are simply not reasonable. Even if your synth is out of warranty, a $40 repair should not put you "in the red" if you decide to sell it.
+1
People need to chill out.
Maybe we should demand Moog fix everything with NASA spec parts for free, including shipping. Then they go out of business, and we never get to see any future releases because we are a bunch of entitled babies.
J. Dickinson
{MF-104m, Sub37}

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thealien666
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by thealien666 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:14 pm

We must not forget that Moog Music is a small company, owned and operated by dedicated and passionate members that have their customer's satisfaction at heart.
This is not some big giant like Roland or Yamaha, with almost limitless resources. Nevertheless, their customer support department is renowned for often going above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to resolving issues with their products. The simple fact that representatives of the company come here on the forum to directly address our concerns is proof of that.

So, let's not get panicky and blow this out of proportion, shall we ?

Other, very well known, classic synths from Moog, as well as other companies, often had revisions of their PCBs to correct very minor design glitches, and subtle design changes to their instruments to compensate for new parts, to replace obsolete ones, during long production runs without causing such a fuss about it. Manufacturers are often at the mercy of their parts suppliers.

The fact is that, appart from the metal shaft versus a plastic one, that is seen only if one takes out the knob for the filter cutoff potentiometer, and without opening the Sub37, nobody could have noticed that there was two different size and type pots in there for the filter cutoff, unless that pot started to fail.
BTW, a metal Alpha pot like the one used in more recent Sub37 is NOT a sealed type. It's a regular high quality pot, but certainly not a hermetically sealed Honeywell J-Type (at $50 US each :shock: ) similar to the old Allen-Bradley of the Minimoog D era.

(Allen-Bradley potentiometer division was bought by Honeywell years ago)
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
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ObtuseMoose
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by ObtuseMoose » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:16 pm

Blackout wrote:
Moog Music wrote: We have repaired all effected units that have been brought to our attention.
how have you repaired them exactly? by kicking the can along the road (hopefully past the end of the warranty?) and putting in another SMD pot (as many on this forum have reported?) or using the new revised PCB board and metal pot?
Whoa. There's no need to imply ulterior motives. Of course the repairs of the first failures consisted of replacing the SMD pot with another SMD pot. The revised PC board obviously wasn't available until 5 or 6/2015 when it started appearing in production units. There was no other better fix ready to use before then.
Blackout wrote:
Moog Music wrote: Please only contact our support department if you are experiencing an issue.
...and we can contact you for how long....only until our warranty expires? for some this is only a few months. Can you promise Moog that this problem will be "fixed" with the metal pot for free regardless of the Sub37 age in the future? This i think is what we all want if you are not prepared to fix the faulty synths now...
Well, I'm sure we can contact Moog support even after the warranty expires :-), but I get what you mean. I really don't think it's feasible for a company like Moog to recall 5000 - some synths to retrofit them with the revised PC board to correct a problem that's affecting < 1% of the units (so far.) Extending the warranty on that particular pot failure would be a nice gesture, but I wouldn't expect them to continue that indefinitely.

I understand the resale concerns, but speaking for myself only, I bought a musical instrument, not an investment. It IS kind of a downer to think that if or when I decide to part with it, I might get somewhat less money than someone else who bought their's a month later, but resale value didn't enter into my decision to buy it in the first place.

This is incentive for me to play the heck out of my Sub37. I'm making it my main synth for the next 10 months. I'm going to get to know the filter section better than any other instrument I've ever had. If it fails, I'll get it fixed. If it doesn't, then I'm confident it'll outlast my lifetime. :D

--
Moose

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:49 am

heya Obtuse. i think the heat would be taken out of this whole thread actually if Moog agrees that faulty filter pots will be fixed free of charge to a new metal pot regardless of whether our Sub37's are in warranty or not. At the end of the day that's all we can really ask for.

And as mentioned by seanpark, its only a $40 repair by the sounds of it. so its not likely to put Moog out of business. From a logistical point of view, its probably wise for Moog to do this as well so the returns come in gradually, instead of a heap of synths arriving on their doorstep in the next few months as people rush to get it done" before the 12 month warranty expiry...

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thealien666
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by thealien666 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:50 am

You're forgetting one thing: what if the pot doesn't fail, and actually last many years ? Moog isn't expected to fix something that isn't defective, are they ?
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
DSI OB6
DSI Prophet REV2
Oberheim Matrix-6
Ensoniq SQ-80
Korg DW8000
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markusfuller
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by markusfuller » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:24 am

Hello. I just need to add this, The amount of Sub37s affected is possibly 60 or under out of all made to date, Moog has stated that if the fault will happen at all then it would likely be early and quick because of faulty wipers and as they have already revised the board then there are no more possible fault units after 06/15 being made. also I see the mini Pots are through hole type so if the larger pot was wanted later on your board then it should be reasonably easy to mod it ( as long as theres no middle track in the way of the hole needed to drill sandwiched between the layers). I would normally do this type of work easily here in the UK and I'm sure theres plenty of good engineers around the planet who can do this if ever the problem arose in the future.
However I guess if you have owned your Sub37 for a while and no problem has appeared its likely that it won't happen at all.
I started in the Sound & lighting business as an installer and repairer in 1984 and can honestly say I have never had to repair a Moog instrument that was a manufacture fault. Yes a few caps from very old Moog systems and a few keys from user abuse and general Pot replacements from what I would call antiques but generally they have a very good record of quality before quantity.
I wish all synth makers were this good with their products. believe me I have seen some bad cheap workmanship from the much bigger companies.

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:56 am

thealien666 wrote:You're forgetting one thing: what if the pot doesn't fail, and actually last many years ? Moog isn't expected to fix something that isn't defective, are they ?
i think i mentioned "faulty filter pots" thealien666. not perfectly working ones. so if the pot fails in 3 years due to less usage (but still fails because it is inherently a problem in all Sub37s) then Moog will properly replace it with a metal pot (as per the Revised Sub37 versions) at that time.

If this becomes policy then i think there will be less panic about warranties expiring. when it eventually happens to you, you know you will be covered. This is my suggestion to Moog. Hopefully they come to the party.

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by MRNUTTY » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:54 am

The original DSI P08 used rotary encoders for all the front panel knobs. Eventually they proved problematic, they replaced the two front panel PCB's with encoders with an all pot design. (read about it here http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/not ... er-issues/). For folks having problems in the field they offered the upgraded PCB's for a price. The PCB's aren't cheap, but it gave folks a reasonable alternative. I personally went through this with the P08 I owned.

It would not be unreasonable for Moog to offer the modified front panel PCB's for cost. I don't know yet if I have a faulty pot unit. I bought mine fairly recently - but that's no guarantee. If I did have one, I would gladly purchase an upgraded PCB as a remedy. I woudn't however drill the card, or buy a unit that had been drilled. I have seen fires when ground and power clearances are violated.
VoyagerEB, Minitaur, LittlePhattyII, 4xSlimPhatty, Sub37, MF[2x101,2x102,103,104M,105,105B,105M,2x107,108M], 3xCP251, XV351, MP201;

Tons of Behringer System 55 clone modules with fixes for design their misses. Good fun!

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minimoog
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by minimoog » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:14 am

For your information,
My sub's serial is 0680x, date of manufacture 06/15.
I confirmed that my sub's pot has a METAL shaft.
Last edited by minimoog on Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

ChiLam
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by ChiLam » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:23 am

^^^Is exactly what I did!

I had one of the 3xxx's and was a bit worried about the pot issue so I contacted Moog and asked if I could buy the revised PCB. They sent it to me in Norway via my nearest dealer within a week and even offered to let me have it for free if I let the store swap out the old board and send it back to them. Unfortunately the store was quite far away and only opened during the week so it meant missing a work day and travel expenses. In the end it worked out cheaper to just buy the new board and keep the old one too. I still have not swapped the board since it continues to work without any issue, plus I don't need to void my warranty by cracking her open unless the issue appears later on.

I am more than happy with the solution and can't help but feel a little sorry for Moog being harshly criticized for what seems to be a simple part failure in a small number of the pots they used. They have been the best team I have ever had to deal with and are genuinely concerned with helping their customers get the best product possible. I really don't think this issue came about because of cost cutting or poor design - more like an unforseen problem with a particular part. Whatever it was they will help you get it sorted i'm sure.

electronicpoison
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by electronicpoison » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:09 am

hello how much you pay for the new board?thank you

Toom
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:18 am

ChiLam wrote:^^^Is exactly what I did!

I had one of the 3xxx's and was a bit worried about the pot issue so I contacted Moog and asked if I could buy the revised PCB. They sent it to me in Norway via my nearest dealer within a week and even offered to let me have it for free if I let the store swap out the old board and send it back to them. Unfortunately the store was quite far away and only opened during the week so it meant missing a work day and travel expenses. In the end it worked out cheaper to just buy the new board and keep the old one too. I still have not swapped the board since it continues to work without any issue, plus I don't need to void my warranty by cracking her open unless the issue appears later on.

I am more than happy with the solution and can't help but feel a little sorry for Moog being harshly criticized for what seems to be a simple part failure in a small number of the pots they used. They have been the best team I have ever had to deal with and are genuinely concerned with helping their customers get the best product possible. I really don't think this issue came about because of cost cutting or poor design - more like an unforseen problem with a particular part. Whatever it was they will help you get it sorted i'm sure.
I've contacted MOOG about this issue because the filter cutoff pot that was replaced is now exhibiting the same issues as before. I have yet to hear back from them. I would definitely order a revised board to swap. How much was the board?

Also, I'm caught in a weird warranty mess because I bought my Sub 37 from the US but I live in Canada. Getting the Sub 37 repaired in Canada would mean I would have to pay for labour and getting it repaired at MOOG would mean I would have to pay quite a sum for shipping there and back. I hope that MOOG makes this replaceable board available for me because I have to pay either way and I'd rather pay for a new board.

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:37 am

i dont think anyone is suggesting ChiLam that Moog was cost-cutting with the pots. its more of an unfortunate design or component fault.

i would be more than happy to get the revised PCB so my local technician could install it.

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