Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

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Toom
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:44 pm

I have one of the earliest Sub 37's (#110) and it exhibited the filter cutoff issue previously mentioned many times on this forum. I received a pot from Moog and was able to fix it myself. Now it works perfectly, or at least I thought.

I went to a local music store today and decided to try the filter cutoff of their demo model to see how it felt. To my surprise it felt very sturdy, rock solid! Now I wonder why is it that both pots I used (the original faulty one, and the new one) feel so weak compared to this latest one? I don't use mine that much so you couldn't say that it got 'broken' in.

But I guess that's how it goes, my pot and probably all initial batch of Sub 37 have the flimsy/cheap pots and the new ones have heavy duty ones. I can't help but feel like this one is just going to break any day now like the first one did.

Can someone from MOOG please comment on what exactly changed? And, is it possible to get one of these new pots to install in my machine?

Anyone else feel like their filter cutoff pot is flimsy/cheap?

Blackout
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:19 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:32 am

Right. This now looks like a genuine fault in manufacturing that Moog have addressed and kept relatively quiet until now. This video has exposed this faulty cutoff pot problem and upgrade by Moog well and truly now (see red circle).Looks like the cat is out of the bag. Thanks Markus!

Moog have obviously fixed this in the assembly line with a new top board and different pot. What serial number range are the "faulty" ones? my Sub37 is going to be worth considerably less in the future for resale when it becomes standard knowledge that buyers must avoid the "early ones like the plague" because they all carry this fault. We see this all the time with synths from the past where they have serial number ranges to avoid due to problems. I would not like to be victim to this please.

I would like my early "faulty" board replaced please Moog to one of the current fixed "factory" ones, before the warranty expires.

So how do we go about getting our faulty early Subs updated to the fixed boards. I dont just want another pot like the other one that will fail again in 6 months after the warranty finishes.

Do the distributors world-wide all carry replacement boards now so they can swap out the faulty ones? with the pot on the other side of the board like this, the fix/revision is obviously in the manufactured board with different drill holes and connection points etc.

Capture.JPG

Toom
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:51 am

I'm willing to pay a fair price for the board if that's what it takes to resolve this problem. I just want a solid unit worth the money I invested in it. I can see this pot crapping out on me very soon, it doesn't look/feel too healthy.

Please Moog, will you please help this Sub 37.

P.s. I'm not suggesting that Moog upgrade old affected Sub 37s with the revised boards on account of warranty. My pot does work, just not well. I'm willing to invest in making it better.

pedrofloyd
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:09 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by pedrofloyd » Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:37 pm

Toom wrote:I'm willing to pay a fair price for the board if that's what it takes to resolve this problem. I just want a solid unit worth the money I invested in it. I can see this pot crapping out on me very soon, it doesn't look/feel too healthy.

Please Moog, will you please help this Sub 37.

P.s. I'm not suggesting that Moog upgrade old affected Sub 37s with the revised boards on account of warranty. My pot does work, just not well. I'm willing to invest in making it better.


I don't want to pay nothing for the new board.
I think that MOOG should change all the boards that were poorly designed free of charge.
If there is a defect, it must be solved also if apparently non visible. If MOOG changes the board, means trat the problem is not only a defective potentiometer.
Hi,
here are some infos:
OS: windows 7 64 bits and XP SP3
notebooks: thoshiba and Dell both dual core
Audio interface: Echo firewire

OS (inc. 32/64 bit), DAWs, moog equipment and audio interfaces used in your setup.

GregVDS
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:40 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by GregVDS » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:17 pm

Do you see the little skull-like traces on the pictures? These are the traces of all the other smt pots. One does not simply replace a smt pot by a full size one without punching a hole through the pcb, or more fittingly, by redesigning the entire pcb board to acomodate for the new heavy pot. new board des not mean faulty one, only new big pot...

Toom
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:25 pm

I wonder if one could drill the current board and not hit any of the circuitry near the filter pot.

Anyone know?

MooMoo
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:13 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by MooMoo » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:55 pm

So, the old filter pot was on the other side of the board, and the new one is a more traditional type, bigger and more robust?
It'd be interesting to find out what serial number Markus has (perhaps he could contribute to that thread?), also the demo model Toom tried...

To anyone who has replaced their pot: Was the old one the same as the other pots on the board, and did you keep the old one you removed?

pedrofloyd
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:09 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by pedrofloyd » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:08 am

GregVDS wrote:Do you see the little skull-like traces on the pictures? These are the traces of all the other smt pots. One does not simply replace a smt pot by a full size one without punching a hole through the pcb, or more fittingly, by redesigning the entire pcb board to acomodate for the new heavy pot. new board des not mean faulty one, only new big pot...


Yes, but why it's necessary a new big pot? In my opinion because there was a defect in the project (it may not even be an electronic problem) . This means that there is always the possibility in the future that the problem appears on an instrument with the smt pot..
I worked for thirty years in the electronic industry and I know that this things happen. It seems that the official position of moog is that there are some defective pots but I'm pretty sure that this is not the true..if not, why changing the pcb board and not the supplier pot?
Hi,
here are some infos:
OS: windows 7 64 bits and XP SP3
notebooks: thoshiba and Dell both dual core
Audio interface: Echo firewire

OS (inc. 32/64 bit), DAWs, moog equipment and audio interfaces used in your setup.

Blackout
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:19 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:52 am

GregVDS wrote:One does not simply replace a smt pot by a full size one without punching a hole through the pcb, or more fittingly, by redesigning the entire pcb board to acomodate for the new heavy pot.


correct. moog must have re-designed the board with traces going around a new hole to accommodate the new, more heavy duty pot. Moog has realized that the big knob of the filter pot puts extra sideways stresses on the little surface mount pots and they are not able to handle the extra pressures and they are failing. They must be proper chassis mounted traditional pots so they dont fail. And this is what we see here...Moog has changed the surface mount pot to be replaced by a traditional pot.

i doubt very much we can just drill holes in our boards and plunge in a traditional pot in its place. it would require a new board with a mounting hole and the new pot.

First thing is to find out (or get an official word) as to what serial numbers are affected by the faulty pot problem so customers can get the boards/pot replaced. Looks like Moog has a big recall/mess on their hands now.

Moog?

pedrofloyd
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:09 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by pedrofloyd » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:23 pm

Looking at this viedeo about Voyager it seems that smd pot are used too for the filter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku0BdjNasko
I'm wondering why the Voyager is not affected by the problem!
Hi,
here are some infos:
OS: windows 7 64 bits and XP SP3
notebooks: thoshiba and Dell both dual core
Audio interface: Echo firewire

OS (inc. 32/64 bit), DAWs, moog equipment and audio interfaces used in your setup.

bemushroomed
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:00 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by bemushroomed » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:25 pm

How does the faulty one feel in comparison? I guess my cut off knob feels like the rest of the knobs, maybe it does glide slightly easier then the smaller knobs.. hope i have one of the newer versions.

ObtuseMoose
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 7:36 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by ObtuseMoose » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:08 pm

Blackout wrote:i doubt very much we can just drill holes in our boards and plunge in a traditional pot in its place. it would require a new board with a mounting hole and the new pot.


I agree. Modern circuit boards are often multi-layer, meaning that in addition to the traces you can see on the top and bottom, there may be traces embedded in the middle. If that's the case with this board (and I do not know if it is), drilling through the board in the wrong place would be disasterous.

Blackout wrote:First thing is to find out (or get an official word) as to what serial numbers are affected by the faulty pot problem so customers can get the boards/pot replaced.


I can say that my unit, (SN 54xx, build date of 4/2015) does NOT have the large pot (and has NOT had the filter cutoff problem as of yet.) Assuming the SNs are truly serial starting at 0001, that's a lot of units with the original hardware.

They might not do a general recall, but rather offer a secret extended warranty for this particular problem, meaning they would fix it for free even if it happens after the regular warranty period expires. Apple has been known to do this sort of thing with some of their products. On the other hand, that would be little comfort to folks who count on their Sub37 for live performances.

--
Moose

Toom
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:38 pm

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Toom » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:17 pm

The new one I replaced works but it's flimsy and everytime I use it I feel like I need to be careful or it could fail like the original one did. Maybe I'm being too cautious but compared to all other synths I've played, this is the weirdest feeling pot I've ever seen. It's like buying a new bike and having a wobbly wheel and everyone telling you 'well it rides doesn't it?'. I'd rather not ride a wobbly filter cutoff, if you get what I'm saying.

Are some worse than others? Mine is a noticeable problem, perhaps it isn't so bad for others.

Again, I love my Sub 37 and want to keep playing it for the next 30 years! Just want to resolve this problem. Hope you can help / understand Moog.

Blackout
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:19 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by Blackout » Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:58 pm

ObtuseMoose wrote:I can say that my unit, (SN 54xx, build date of 4/2015) does NOT have the large pot (and has NOT had the filter cutoff problem as of yet.) Assuming the SNs are truly serial starting at 0001, that's a lot of units with the original hardware.

Moose


hi Moose thanks for your info, yes they did start at 0001. mine is in the 400's...an early one. and my cutoff pot has started to go "wonky", i mentioned it back several months ago on the other thread that first mentioned this problem. But i havent wanted my Sub37 to leave my side ! so i havent addressed the problem yet, im sure many are in the same boat.

yours is certainly a very recent one. So it looks like there is at least 5400 faulty units out there.

does anyone have contact details for Markus, who made the video? maybe we can find out what serial number his unit is. It will be very hard for all of us to find out for ourselves on our own units without all of us voiding our warranties, which we really don't want to do. At least from Moose's post we know that we need to look at units past 5400. I bet Moog know exactly when they started doing this fix on the assembly line...

EDIT: i have messaged Markus through his youtube video. lets see if he responds with a serial number or any more info. For all we know at this point he may have done that cutoff pot fix himself

GregVDS
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:40 am

Re: Sub 37 Filter Cutoff: First Batch vs. Revised Batch

Post by GregVDS » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:52 am

ObtuseMoose wrote:
Blackout wrote:i doubt very much we can just drill holes in our boards and plunge in a traditional pot in its place. it would require a new board with a mounting hole and the new pot.


I agree. Modern circuit boards are often multi-layer, meaning that in addition to the traces you can see on the top and bottom, there may be traces embedded in the middle. If that's the case with this board (and I do not know if it is), drilling through the board in the wrong place would be disasterous.

Blackout wrote:First thing is to find out (or get an official word) as to what serial numbers are affected by the faulty pot problem so customers can get the boards/pot replaced.


I can say that my unit, (SN 54xx, build date of 4/2015) does NOT have the large pot (and has NOT had the filter cutoff problem as of yet.) Assuming the SNs are truly serial starting at 0001, that's a lot of units with the original hardware.

They might not do a general recall, but rather offer a secret extended warranty for this particular problem, meaning they would fix it for free even if it happens after the regular warranty period expires. Apple has been known to do this sort of thing with some of their products. On the other hand, that would be little comfort to folks who count on their Sub37 for live performances.

--
Moose


Hi Moose,

could you participate in the Sub37 SN thread, so as to add this valuable info to it?

Many thanks,

Greg

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