Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

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franklinstower
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by franklinstower » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:21 am

^^^^^

I am glad you posted this and wanted to follow up. Moog is such a GREAT company and I am just very grateful they are around and producing these wonderful instruments for us to use. The first sub 37 I had came with some issues-- it was from guitar Center (another company I like) but it had been used and returned and there were some problems. Turns out one of them was with the velocity sensitivity. I don't know if it was software or hardware but it didn't have any effect really. When I wrote my post yesterday I was just assuming my present sub 37 was the same. It is not and I found that out last night. I could not be happier with the Sub 37 and the sensitivity on this thing-- it is way better than on my last Korg which only had four levels of sensitivity.


Thanks to Moog for this great instrument.

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Meneer Vincent
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Meneer Vincent » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:47 am

Sometimes I feel on this forum critics are not allowed...

On my SubPhatty the keyboard feels cheap and it is noisy even after a repair it is still noisy. Because of the cheap key's and springs.
When Moog is reading these critics they will think twice about some building parts when they make a new synth.
II hope that they will put a better keyboard in the machine from a different supplier.
That will be the result of users who have questions but also have critics about build quality issues on this forum.

Mike37
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Mike37 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:41 am

Meneer Vincent wrote:Sometimes I feel on this forum critics are not allowed...

On my SubPhatty the keyboard feels cheap and it is noisy even after a repair it is still noisy. Because of the cheap key's and springs.
When Moog is reading these critics they will think twice about some building parts when they make a new synth.
II hope that they will put a better keyboard in the machine from a different supplier.
That will be the result of users who have questions but also have critics about build quality issues on this forum.


Hear, hear! Let's keep it real. The keyboard on Sub 37 is sub-par, period - particularly the black keys. Moog told us that they are willing to send/sell softer springs to those who want them. That's much appreciated. I've written to Moog asking to buy softer springs for my Sub 37, which would partly fix the problem. I've yet to get a response though. My point in starting this thread was to make Moog aware of Sub 37's keyboard issues, so maybe this can be avoided in future models.

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Meneer Vincent
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Meneer Vincent » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:05 pm

@Mike37 I agree with you cause thats exactly what I am saying; Make Moog aware of issues ;-)
And some issues are critics thats all.
Also no doubt there will be a difference between the keyboard of the SubPhatty and the Sub 37.

artQ
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by artQ » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:55 pm

any news about some lighter tension springs for the SUB37 ?
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dmodhotr
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by dmodhotr » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:56 pm

My Sub 37 arrived last week with zero problems EXCEPT for the uneven keys. I'm not sure what to do about it. It does detract from the overall appearance of the synth to have such uneven keys.
Are they supposed to be that way? I'm just wondering how many people have this problem and if other Sub 37's are straight all the way across the key bed?

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Blackout » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:21 am

my keyboard looks fine to me. straight enough for me not to notice a problem. and i noticed that many of my Prophet 6 knobs were wonky/off center when turned almost immediately...so im reasonably pedantic.

if you open up the keyboard, i mean really pull it apart, each key has felt underneath the front that sits under the front metal plate strip. The keys rise up and a hook of the key hits the felt, stopping it from raising any further. If the felt is uneven, you will get uneven height keys. If the felt is too thick, but even, you can get some keys "bed" into the felt further than others and it can cause this problem.

if you have a key that is too low, just try pulling it up a bit. If a key looks too high....try pulling the ones either side of it up a little bit. the key will "bed" into the felt a bit more, probably enough to line up.

(i have a feeling that the unusually "strong" springs are possibly part of the problem here in this case)....

hope this helps
Cheers,
Blackout

ringokidf
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by ringokidf » Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:47 am

Hi.
I have uneven keys and wrote to Moog sometime in June, the reply was to contact the Shop where I bought my Sub37. Fair enough and since I was using the synth constant and really digging it, even with the uneven keys, I never send it back for a change or repair.

But now the Filter Cutoff knob problem showed up and something very strange things regarding Midi out/USB out going balistic. So I send it of and have to wait for 15-20 week days for it to return.

Hopefully they just adjust the felt under the keys, change the filter pot and tell me I´m a moron cause I did something very stupid in the MIDI menu and boom I´ll have it back in a snap cause I really miss it and need it.
Yes crying here on the forum, cause the wife is not interested in listing to these kind of probs.
OK it´s not the best keybed I have played on, that´s for sure but the sound of the synth and the possibilitys are huge and pure quality.

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dmodhotr
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by dmodhotr » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:17 pm

Blackout wrote:my keyboard looks fine to me. straight enough for me not to notice a problem. and i noticed that many of my Prophet 6 knobs were wonky/off center when turned almost immediately...so im reasonably pedantic.

if you open up the keyboard, i mean really pull it apart, each key has felt underneath the front that sits under the front metal plate strip. The keys rise up and a hook of the key hits the felt, stopping it from raising any further. If the felt is uneven, you will get uneven height keys. If the felt is too thick, but even, you can get some keys "bed" into the felt further than others and it can cause this problem.

if you have a key that is too low, just try pulling it up a bit. If a key looks too high....try pulling the ones either side of it up a little bit. the key will "bed" into the felt a bit more, probably enough to line up.

(i have a feeling that the unusually "strong" springs are possibly part of the problem here in this case)....

hope this helps
Cheers,
Blackout


Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I feel comfortable taking it apart, especially since it is brand new. I contacted Tech Support and the seller I purchased from to see what they say.

This is really disappointing considering what an awesome synth it is. Quality concerns was the reason why I waited to purchase the Sub 37. It seems like this would be an obvious quality control issue.
I should add that the keys' tensions are all different as well. The black keys are all very stiff and the white keys are inconsistent with some being easier to trigger than others. :cry:

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Blackout » Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:39 pm

dmodhotr wrote:Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I feel comfortable taking it apart, especially since it is brand new.


you dont have to pull anything apart to do my suggestion...just hook a finger underneath the front of a key on the synth and give the key a bit of a nudge upwards....

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dmodhotr
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by dmodhotr » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:03 pm

Blackout wrote:
dmodhotr wrote:Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I feel comfortable taking it apart, especially since it is brand new.


you dont have to pull anything apart to do my suggestion...just hook a finger underneath the front of a key on the synth and give the key a bit of a nudge upwards....


I see what you're saying. I tried it and tried it again at your suggestion applying more pressure. It's a little straighter but it does not help the worst keys. See middle E key below:

Sub37keys.jpg
crooked keys

DrJustice
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by DrJustice » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:26 pm

artQ wrote:any news about some lighter tension springs for the SUB37 ?

I'd be interested in this too. Especially the black keys could do with lighter springs for an even feeling.

Subber37
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Subber37 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:30 am

dmodhotr wrote:Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I feel comfortable taking it apart, especially since it is brand new. I contacted Tech Support and the seller I purchased from to see what they say.

This is really disappointing considering what an awesome synth it is. Quality concerns was the reason why I waited to purchase the Sub 37. It seems like this would be an obvious quality control issue.
I should add that the keys' tensions are all different as well. The black keys are all very stiff and the white keys are inconsistent with some being easier to trigger than others. :cry:


The reason the black ones feel stiff is, for some reason, the (chinese?) maker of the keybeds didn't see fit to put in larger/slacker springs for the black keys but used the same exact length/strength for both black and white keys. Roland and others (back when they made quality gear before all this plastic crap at least) used to have shorter springs for white/longer for black - this made sure the tension felt even over the keys, to put the same spring on both black and white isn't good as the 'throw' of the black key is much shorter and doesn't need to be pulled up as strongly.

The uneven keybed does affect quite a few sub 37s (inc mine originally) mine was so bad that I got a replacement keybed which, while still not 100% perfect vs a good quality Roland keybed is 95% better than my previous one. I fitted this myself and this is how I got to confirm the spring strengths on the old keybed.

I would love a set of longer springs for the blacks, they really are annoying sometimes when you are just trying to bounce a quick (pinky) off a black, it takes more thinking than most keybeds, though if you up your game strength wise it's fine, but I'd prefer it not be this way.

Uneven keys I'm not sure exactly what causes it, a combination of too strong springs and the felt as said above surely, but also cheap plastic frame and general low build quality means some will be worse than others. The one I have now LOOKS straight and feels nicer too, makes me actually wanna play it more and it really did annoy me when I looked at the previous one (on my third tier of an a-frame so could easily see the roller coaster keybed from sitting)... They keybed itself is a very cheap one, I mean we're talking around $30 cost to manufacture/supply or something low like that - I'm not making it up, but the upside is it's not an expensive thing to buy if you want to contact moog and ask for a replacement be sent out (they sent me mine for free cos I'd had a couple of issues one after the other so it was a good-will-gesture) and I can not fault their friendly customer service and prompt action, so cut them some slack - they delivered probably the best overall / all round VCO analog synth of the past 5 years (from a looks, build, features, status, ability, coolness, onboard toys POV) and yes I think it's better than the Prophet 6 (other than not being poly - but I'd love a poly 37/61 vs the Prophet 6 which is a nice synth but very VERY limited just where I wouldn't want an expensive analog to be limited but lets not go there right now :) )...

So a great synth, stunning features, BRILLIANT sound (better than P6 in many many cases for mono stuff) but let down by a cheap keyboard. It's relatively easy to fit a new one, just a bit fiddly to hold the panel up while doing it (get your wife/gf to help you hold it as I did) ;)

Mike37
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Mike37 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:32 pm

Can anyone post a weblink to a set of keyboard springs that would give a keyboard feel similar to Voyager? I've had my Sub 37 for several months, and the keyboard simply doesn't do it for me. Esp. the black keys are not comfortable to play. I've sent a couple of emails to Moog Music (asking to buy a set of keyboard springs from them), but I don't get a reply.

Blackout
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Re: Sub 37 - Keyboard quality and playability

Post by Blackout » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:04 am

i have a feeling that you only feel the difference in springs between the black and white keys if you actually use more than one finger to play a synth...which is why its never bothered me in the Sub 37 hehe

but if what everyone is saying is true about the same spring thing for blacks and whites...then im fairly shocked that Moog let that one slip past the testing phase

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