breath control to sub 37 question

[Sihaz]

hi all,

hope you've been having a good easter

i'm about to bite the bullet and upgrade my akai ewi from a 25 year old 3000 series to a new 5000s. looking at the manual, it seems it can transmit hi res breath control CC using CC2 and CC34 at the same time. does anyone know, (perhaps amos of course), if the sub 37 can respond to this or does it just take the 128 step CC2 message and ignore the extra bits?

if so, perhaps amos could say whether hi res breath control is possible in an update at some point. would make the ewi / sub combo pretty killer i think i've already mentioned in other threads that the old ewi seems to be a bit steppy sending mod wheel assigned to filter cutoff but if the sub can read hi res breath control i reckon it would be much smoother...

hope i've made sense!

cheers,

si

[Sihaz]

ok rtfm! i've been looking at the midi section in the manual. it looks like the sub will hear the hi res breath control. i guess the thing to do is try and take it to a shop that has an ewi on demo and have a play

[Corgy]

Well, I never checked out for Hi-Res, but I hooked up my EWI 4000S to the Sub37, made some breath-control suited patches and had a lot of fun. It's a totally different playing and synth experience compared to keys ...

[_DemonDan_]

I hooked up my EWI 4000S to the Sub 37, made some breath-control suited patches and had a lot of fun. It's a totally different playing and synth experience compared to keys.

On of the main concepts to grasp, if you want a fully-responsive breath controlled preset (in a Sub 37 or any synthesizer), is that it's best to completely eliminate ALL other modulation sources (other than Breath Control) that are going to parameters controlled by Breath.

For example, if you have Breath Control (CC#2) increasing the Cutoff Frequency of the Lowpass Filter, you don't want ANYTHING ELSE also modulating the Filter Cutoff. So make sure that EG AMT in the FILTER section is set at 12 o'clock (zero). You also don't want any LFOs or Velocity changing the Filter Cutoff.

The idea is that your breath intensity is the sole control of Filter Cutoff. Anything else just feels disconnected.

If you're also using Breath Control to change the volume from a desired min to a desired max, it's crucial that your Amplitude EG has an instant ATTACK, a maxed SUSTAIN, and a maxed RELEASE. (Or, just set SUSTAIN to max and light the AMPLITUDE EG's LATCH ON.)

Again, you don't want your breath-controlled volume to fight against the AMPLITUDE EG. You want sound every time you blow into the Breath Controller. And you want the relationship between your breath pressure the volume to always be the same, every time.

[Sihaz]

hi dan,

wise words as always. sometimes though, in the band i play with, ( http://www.willgregorymoogensemble.co.uk/ ), the arrangement needs us all to sound keyboardy. at that point, i can use the multitrig on the envelope section and then use the envelope in a more standard way to have it temporarily less windy. also a little eg amt can add a touch of "ping" to the start of a note which allows the breath to follow on nicely from an accent. i've recently got hold of a behringer foor controller too, which is opening up lots of realtime adjustments which i can't make when both hands are on the ewi. much more expression to be eked out of this combo i think

cheers,

si

[Corgy]

I hooked up my EWI 4000S to the Sub 37, made some breath-control suited patches and had a lot of fun. It's a totally different playing and synth experience compared to keys.

On of the main concepts to grasp, if you want a fully-responsive breath controlled preset (in a Sub 37 or any synthesizer), is that it's best to completely eliminate ALL other modulation sources (other than Breath Control) that are going to parameters controlled by Breath.

Exactly ... I define the controls such that the synth is reacting on the EWI like a wind instrument. Most important for me and my playing style is that the strength of breath is most sensitively controlling volume and filter opening. Wind instrument techniques like vibrato, tounging, or throating can create live effects that would be nearly impossible with keys and modwheels.

[Sihaz]

Ok guys,

I bit the bullet and grabbed an ewi 5000 from thomann. They offer a 30 return so I guessed if I couldn't make the two play nicely together I could send the sub back, ONLY JOKING!

Anyway, first day was a bit disappointing. Couldn't get the ewi to respond to my breath properly and it seemed to be retriggering the sub constantly so there was constant stepping going on. Not very musical sounding at all. Gave up and went to bed.

Next day, I tried factory resetting the ewi and all went well from there on in. The 5000 allows much more tweaking of the midi output which has allowed me to get lots of extra bits of control compared to the 3000.

Glide can be switched on and off without changing the glide time to max, (rendering it useless on the 3000). The hold and interval buttons can be freely assigned any cc number so as well as using them to change program with the program screw, i have been experimenting with using them to switch the feedback and mod 2 on and off. Great for adding a bit of grit or wobble.

Breath sensor can again be freely assigned a cc number and as all my old 3000 patches have filter cutoff set to mod wheel, (a settting missing on the 4000s), I set the ewi to output cc1 and it seems pretty smooth. I'm finding the vibrato, or bite sensor, is less sensitive than the 3000 but a quick tweak of the bend range on the sub fixes that. Also the 5000 can be set so that the bite sensor sends pitch down rather than pitch up like the other ewis. To my ears, (as a sax player), this produces a more natural sounding vibrato as sax vib is generally done by slackening the embouchure a touch then bringing it back which makes the pitch dip then return.

All in all I'm really pleased. A bit worried to discover that if the battery goes very low, the ewi can become useless. Seems hard to source spare batteries too. Now i can't wait for my panda midi wireless system to arrive next week. Seems crazy they didn't build wireless midi into this thing. I can't imagine the wireless audio being useful for me as the sounds are totally dead compared to the sub 37.

More experimenting to be done and first live gig in 2 weeks... http://www.stroudvalleysartspace.org.uk/node/2263

Cheers,

Si

[Corgy]

...
Anyway, first day was a bit disappointing. Couldn't get the ewi to respond to my breath properly and it seemed to be retriggering the sub constantly so there was constant stepping going on. Not very musical sounding at all. Gave up and went to bed.

Next day, I tried factory resetting the ewi and all went well from there on in. The 5000 allows much more tweaking of the midi output which has allowed me to get lots of extra bits of control compared to the 3000.
...

Typically the factory settings are not suited for every wind instrument player. I guess, the 5000 should sport the same technology as my 4000 and the handbook pointed out very clearly that every player should carry out an adjustment procedure. The instrument should adopt to the player not the player to the instrument. As an example, there is quite a difference between somebody playing a horn, a saxophon, a flute, or just starting out first time with a breath controlled instrument.

There is one particular point with the EWI to be aware of. It is not blown through the mouthpiece like a "traditional" wind instrument. It's rather blown such that the most of the air goes outside of the mouthpiece. You can overstress yourself too easily, if you are trying to get all of your breath through the instrument.

[Sihaz]

Hi again corgy,

Yeah, setting up the 3000 according to the manual yields great results. However on this new one, if i follow the calibration instructions it all goes tits up! Strange but at least the default suits me just fine. The manual also states that to set one calibration , you need to blow full strength into the instrument, adjust one of the tiny knobs and watch the led display at the same time. You'd need to be a contortionist to manage that!

I'm a pro sax player for my day job and i always blow through the ewi. I realise the manual says to blow past it, but trust me, i'm not going to strain myself on this thing compared to an acoustic horn. There is no comparison

Cheers,

Si

[Corgy]

Hi again corgy,

...
I'm a pro sax player for my day job and i always blow through the ewi. I realise the manual says to blow past it, but trust me, i'm not going to strain myself on this thing compared to an acoustic horn. There is no comparison

Cheers,

Si

Yea ... playing sax too, so you already did know this.

Did you know that Michael Brecker used to play the EWI? Have you ever tried to plug an EWI in to an Yamaha VL-70m? If not, do it!

[Sihaz]

Yea ... playing sax too, so you already did know this.

Did you know that Michael Brecker used to play the EWI? Have you ever tried to plug an EWI in to an Yamaha VL-70m? If not, do it!

of course mate. saw brecker here in london in 1988 when he was touring his first solo album. did an amazing 15 minute ewi solo, though at that time he was using an original steinerphone and not an akai. hooked up to akai s900s and an oberheim expander.

i started saving up there and then but it took me a couple of years to get hold of my s3000. it's still going strong but i don't really want to gig with it any more as it's getting delicate!

pic attached of grandad and grandson

[Corgy]

Yea ... playing sax too, so you already did know this.

Did you know that Michael Brecker used to play the EWI? Have you ever tried to plug an EWI in to an Yamaha VL-70m? If not, do it!

of course mate. saw brecker here in london in 1988 when he was touring his first solo album. did an amazing 15 minute ewi solo, though at that time he was using an original steinerphone and not an akai. hooked up to akai s900s and an oberheim expander.

i started saving up there and then but it took me a couple of years to get hold of my s3000. it's still going strong but i don't really want to gig with it any more as it's getting delicate!

pic attached of grandad and grandson

Very nice family indeed

My first acquaintance to the EWI was made during a solo by Jeff Kishawa. After listening to that performance, I needed to get one for myself. Since then ... it's been a lot of fun ... and I can play it midnight at home - plugged in and using headphones ...

[GregVDS]

While looking at the EWI instruments, I crossed a very peculiar one, that I mistook at first for a breath controller, but nope, there is no way to blow air inside the stuff. But that's a controller:

http://www.dafact.com

The thing is called a Karlax, built by a small french society called Da Fact (I wouldn't have choosen such a name, but these guys do not seem to know english so well as to avoid puns...), and seems to be a MIDI controller on steroids, looking a bit like a Clarinet Saxophone from the 22th century. Sadly it does not seem the stuff still exists, or even existed for a time. I can't find anything closer to us than 2012 .

Price was dissuasive anyway (4700€). I wrote them, but have received no answer yet.

Good, one GAS less . Done

[Corgy]

While looking at the EWI instruments, I crossed a very peculiar one, that I mistook at first for a breath controller, but nope, there is no way to blow air inside the stuff. But that's a controller:

http://www.dafact.com

The thing is called a Karlax, built by a small french society called Da Fact (I wouldn't have choosen such a name, but these guys do not seem to know english so well as to avoid puns...), and seems to be a MIDI controller on steroids, looking a bit like a Clarinet Saxophone from the 22th century. Sadly it does not seem the stuff still exists, or even existed for a time. I can't find anything closer to us than 2012 .

Price was dissuasive anyway (4700€). I wrote them, but have received no answer yet.

Good, one GAS less . Done

Interesting, yes. If you have not tried an EWI on a synth before and you are a musician, who likes to play synth sounds very expressive and live, you should at least give it a try. It's more than GAS, it's a different musical experience

Playing a keyboard gives you two hands, two wheels and a bunch of knobs, but at the end, two hands.

Playing an EWI gives you two hands with 2x4 fingers for the notes, two thumbs for octave, slide, expression, the inner side of hands to touch or move something, your breath, your tounge and your bite and last but not least your throat. You may sing or growl into the instrument and if the set-up is suited, all of this can be modifiers in parallel. There is one device I know that provides even more simultaneous modulations - LEAP Motion.

[Sihaz]

hi again all,

well i've been working at this ewi sub37 combo for over a week now and have finally landed on the best set up. after doing things the old way just because i'm used to it with the ewi 3000, (ie. setting up mod wheel to filter cutoff via one of the lfos set to constant on and then ewi breath to mod wheel), i had an epiphany today while looking at the sub manual. DOH MOMENT!!! you can send cc#19 to the sub 37 to control filter cutoff directly. the ewi 5000, (though sadly not the 3000 or 4000), can be set to send any cc# you want from the breath sensor. two main advantages to this - i now don't have to tie up an lfo for the filter cutoff and magically, there is no stepping - smooth as silk. seems like all the processing via the lfo causes a little of the glitchiness. anyway, i'm now officially really happy with this set up. I knew there was going to be an optimum but it took me a while to find it. another advantage is that i can control lots of the presets in as sensible manner now with a minimum of adjustments. i'll try to post what the combo sounds like when i get a chance.

cheers,

si