Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

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Tyler
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Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Tyler » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:30 pm

I just received a new Sub 37 this past Dec. and recently observed that (running all the latest firmware updates - including 1.0.7) the sequencer's internal clock seems to be a little unstable in that it seems to drift in and out of sync with (tested with) a number of good metronomes. I work with metronomes a lot. Further to this, it's really difficult to nail an accurate clock rate (and no way of reading accurately the tempo) using the Arpeggiator Rate knob. Is 120 (as aligned visually at 120... for example) truly 120 BPM?

Has anyone else observed this? I'm hoping that it's not just my Sub 37.

I want to be able to run a couple of sequencers without having to sync them together electronically. You know that magic that happens when two rhythms are in perfect sync.

Is it possible that there might be some other aspect of the Sub 37's modulation bus system that could be affecting the internal clock? Support at Moogs suggested that I update my firmware but I had already done this before I recognized this drifting issue.

dhocks76
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by dhocks76 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:44 am

I did not notice anything like this,
But is there anything against using a MIDI cable to ensure the sync?
You can easily sync and then un-sync with the sequencer and let it drift..

Tyler
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Tyler » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:10 pm

Yes, and thanks dhocks76... I have successfully synced the Sub 37 (via MIDI) to an external sequencer. However, with the external sequencer now locking in the Sub 37's sequencer rate... it additionally doubles the speed of the Sub 37's sequencer. Of course upon disabling the connection the rate stays at that speed... I could control the rate before disconnecting but all of this (at this stage) but it makes for a very impractical live performance setting as my host sequencer rate is now slower than I want it to be. I guess I'll keep experimenting.

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_DemonDan_
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by _DemonDan_ » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:23 pm

Tyler wrote:I have successfully synced the Sub 37 (via MIDI) to an external sequencer. However, with the external sequencer now locking in the Sub 37's sequencer rate... it additionally doubles the speed of the Sub 37's sequencer.
Hi Tyler,
Silly question but...
You *do* know that the Sub 37's Arp/Seq timing relationship to MIDI clock is settable (per Preset) via the ARPEGGIATOR/CLOCK DIV parameter in the PRESET MENU, yes?

(If not, crack open the owner's manual to page 36.)
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

Asymetrical
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Asymetrical » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:56 pm

Please dont with the read the manual!

Sub 37 came with NO manual!

:(

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_DemonDan_
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by _DemonDan_ » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:15 pm

Asymetrical wrote:Please dont with the read the manual!

Sub 37 came with NO manual!
Please allow me to direct you to:
http://www.moogmusic.com/sites/default/ ... l_8_13.pdf
This version of the manual was posted in August of 2014.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

Tyler
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Tyler » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:09 pm

Wow... I'm really surprised to know that a Sub 37 was shipped without a manual. Hard to believe... that's a major breech in Moog packing protocol. The dealer who sold the Sub 37 should have helped check for this. I'd be all over the dealer on that one. Was it a floor/demo model? You can't find a better resource for all things Sub 37. Anyway... manual aside if it didn't ship with the unit, Moog have made it readily available in PDF format. I had mine months before my Sub 37 shipped.

Asymetrical
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Asymetrical » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:27 pm

I'm sorry I don't mean to be ass but it does hurt my feelings not to have gotten a manual.......

I jumped at the first shipment as I got a call they were in at the beginning of Aug 2014. I had the money at the time so I bought Sub 37 #234 complete with broken Filter Pot, a bad key board and a light leak that got a fix on later #'s. Plus if that wasn't bad enough I dont have a manual to read. I'm sorry that people who can read pdf's are awesome but for me I can't absorb the info without getting distracted by facebook and emails and drama drama drama! I've got a sub phatty manual so thats what I've read but a Sub37 should have a manual considering the complexity. Yeah wow Moog had a Manual in Aug but didn't wait a week to ship units so they could include a manual....Thanks for nothing there! As far as returning the item, I bought it 5 hours away in the bay, I don't go there very often. as for shipping the unit back to NC, well it's money that's the issue. Plus I feel I need a hard case to ship it, more money and if I don't do this by Aug 5th (sales date) then I can look forward to paying more money!

I hit up this forum cause it's a great place to learn but if people use the old "Look in the manual" response then I'm at a serious disadvantage. with Pdf's I cant take notes and fold pages to bookmark important areas. Plus come on if I wanted to read a computer I could have bought soft synths instead. I need hands on to be really get my mind around things......

But really back to the OG post, were you able to sort the clock sync issue?, It's def in my plan for my Sub37 if so I'd be stoked to hear what you did! Do you really have to set the clock sync speed for every patch? or is the a global sync? If my Daw's at 100 Bpm I don't want my Sub37 to be at 200 BPM.......I cant test any of this so ......sorry I'm no help but my synth came broken!

B3 guy
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by B3 guy » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:25 pm

Asymetrical,

The first few rounds of shipments of the Sub37 did not include a printed manual but did (or at least were supposed to) have a welcome letter that explained how to get a printed copy once they were ready. All you have to do is send an email to [email protected] with your serial number and they will send you a printed manual at no additional expense. There is a thread in the Phatty Forum about this and many people, myself included, received their manual in the mail. I would encourage you to email them; I have mine on the shelf right next to the copy of the PDF that I printed out while I was waiting. Hope that helps.

Asymetrical
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Asymetrical » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:19 pm

Oh I know but that way is as simple as getting an address,

not a simple thing to do when your homeless in Nor Cal growing weed

I could meet you in Arcata and trade you a nug for you manual........

Tyler
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Tyler » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:13 pm

Okay... I haven't heard from anyone with internal clock issues on the Sub 37. However, this will go un-noticed unless you try playing a Sub 37 Arpeggio or Sequence live along with another sequencer. The rate knob on the Sub 37 can help you come close but it just won't sync up exactly in step... in my case the clock rate drifts in and out of sync which I've learned is pretty standard as far as machine clock rates go. I know that it's my Sub 37's clock rate doing the drifting because I can manually sync up a metronome to click in step with another sequencer I have and when in step the two stay like this... well... for a very long time.

So I remedied the problem by getting an E-RM MIDIClock+ and by simply setting this device up to send a midi clock rate to the Sub 37 and by pressing the "Sync" button next to the Arpeggio Rate knob on the Sub 37 the MIDIClock+ will allow you to control the Sub's clock rate with accuracy (you can even see the actual clock rate on the MIDIClock LED interface... which is helpful) and it has clearly eliminated the Sub 37's clock rate from drifting. The MIDIClock is easy to turn clock rate on and off to allow you the flexibility to control the Sub 37's arpeggiator rate with the Arpeggio Rate knob when ever you want.

kvitekp
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by kvitekp » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:41 pm

My Sub37 has very unstable clock and it gets even worse when panel controls are used, with FILTER CUTOFF knob having the maximum effect.

I have a microprocessor based tool built around ATMega328 MCU with MIDI IN circuitry and 2 x 7 segment LEDs that measures incoming MIDI clock accuracy and stability, see more details and some device stats here.

My Sub37 with 1.0.7 firmware clock stability floats between 3 and 4%, and jumps up to 6-7% when FILTER CUTOFF knob is operated. Most hardware devices I tested have clock stability better than 1%.

/Peter
www.midisizer.com - home of MidiALF MIDI/CV step sequencer, MidiREX MIDI Looper and more synth DIY stuff...

Tyler
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Tyler » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:41 pm

No discredit to the Sub 37 (because so far this has been an excellent instrument for me) but "thank you" for your reply. I suspect the internal clock rate drift on these instruments is something many musicians are going to overlook because of all the different ways the Arpeggiator and Sequencer feature are being used out there. I think in most live situations the Sub 37's sequencer alone will do the job and nobody would be any worse for wear but in multiple sequencing situations everything has to be exact. I hope the Firmware guys on this project can react to this anomaly. Timing with sequencers and arpeggiators is really important!

ChiLam
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by ChiLam » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:34 pm

Tyler wrote:No discredit to the Sub 37 (because so far this has been an excellent instrument for me) but "thank you" for your reply. I suspect the internal clock rate drift on these instruments is something many musicians are going to overlook because of all the different ways the Arpeggiator and Sequencer feature are being used out there. I think in most live situations the Sub 37's sequencer alone will do the job and nobody would be any worse for wear but in multiple sequencing situations everything has to be exact. I hope the Firmware guys on this project can react to this anomaly. Timing with sequencers and arpeggiators is really important!
I found it impossible to keep the 37's internal sequencer in time with that of any other sequencer too, but that has been my experience with all sequencers when set to run from their own internal clocks. They always drift in and out but mostly out! Sure, you may be lucky enough to find a few devices which have very similar clock rates and seem to be accurate but it can, and often will, vary quite alot - just think about actual clockmakers and how most dedicated timepeices will need to be re-synced quite regularly.

This is why I use a master clock for sequencing with multiple devices - it has always been essential to do so in my rig if I want things to be running in any rythmical way - this usually has the benefit that even if the clock is not exactly 100bpm all the time its OK because the other devices are equally wrong. Dedicate one sequencer as a Master and the rest as slaves and things are mostly good. Put too much multi-tasking pressure on that master device however and you can expect the clock to drift. I think this is what happens with the 37 - the priority for the processor is to carry out parameter adjustments correctly along with other tasks and the clock is lower in the order and easily affected by the amount of data being processed.

I have not really come across any situation where you might attempt to run several sequencers together but all using their own individual clocks - is this what you want/need to do?

Tyler
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Re: Sub 37 Internal Clock Instability?

Post by Tyler » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:24 pm

ChiLam wrote: I have not really come across any situation where you might attempt to run several sequencers together but all using their own individual clocks - is this what you want/need to do?
Thanks for the reply. In response to your parting question "is this what you want to/need to do?" Well, sort of, I guess my initial post was really aimed at sharing a remedy I found to help sync my Sub 37's arpeggiator and sequencer clock rate (that was drifting slightly) to the sequencer rate on my Arturia Moog Modular V soft synth. I was looking at the rhythmic potentials of working with these two instruments in tandem and became rather disappointed when I noticed them drifting together and then apart. Next I tried to slave the clock rate of one to the other & vice versa. This experiment (with the support of other Forum members (thanks)) was helpful but problematic on a number levels. So the idea of introducing a third party midi generated clock signal seemed promising. Now I have the result I wanted and the perk of using the MIDIClock+ is that I can set/change tempos on the fly and I can see the tempos I'm using. Whereas, previously, I could only guesstimate the tempo I was using based on the information provided by the Arp rate knob (on the Sub 37's side) and the virtual frequency rate knob (on the Arturia software interface side). Moreover, as I learned more about clock rate protocols/standards (ref., macProVideo tutorial Midi Demystified)... it was reassuring to hear from you, in knowing that I'm not alone in experiencing clock rate anomalies on the Sub 37's. Back at my initial post about the drifting issue I was kind of left with the impression that it was only my synth with this problem. Now I understand that clock rate incompatibilities in electronic devices is normal. Thanks ChiLam... your experience and feedback has been very useful.

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