Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

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gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:36 pm

Jido, it is not a question to know if i do like or don't, and i'm not spreading fear or doubt as you claim, for fun, i'm just pointing out a phenomenom which is uncommon on proper & analog new gears (even on the vintage ones except when something is broken). That's it.
If you want to spend your money in a synth with a drone sound on it, it's your business but there's people like me who don't think the same, please, thanks to understand.
My goal is not to have fun, i just want to know if this behavior is normal (as far as i know, we are still waiting for confirmation). Why? Just because if it's a fault i will wait for a solution and buy a second one. If not, i'll definitely not , that's it. I don't like this drone sound because i can't get a pure triangle or saw wave which is a problem for me and i beleive other people too, can u understand this?

And regarding the fact that you're a musician, i'm a professionnal composer working on several electronic industrial music projects since the early 80's and into contract with a major Belgian label. I've released many albums so frankly i've nothing to proove... (and we're not here for this, it's not the right place). To conclude, I'm not J. myself with only technical stuffs.
Last edited by gencomprodukts on Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

B3 guy
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by B3 guy » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:30 pm

For whatever it is worth...

When I first read this post (and it's counterpart on another board) my initial reaction was that it was being pushed way WAY too hard. The ear splitting initial example didn't help. Just when I was convinced this was just someone taking anger and dissatisfaction to the nth degree (welcome to the internet) along comes Jon Lukas' post. Now I get it and it's definitely present on my unit as well.

For the record I'm ALL IN on the Sub 37. I had a Model D and I truly believe this is a superior instrument (cue traditionalist outrage). I really do love this thing; it has real character. Unfortunately it also has a flaw. It's very true that the Minimoog's overdriven filter gave it character and made it a classic. The TB303's filter and layout gave it character and it became a classic. The difference is that the things that were initially perceived as flaws on these units were musical and very useful and therefore came to be embraced. If the Sub 37 becomes a classic it will be in spite of this flaw.

While everyone's mileage will vary on how big of a deal it is to their ears, there is nothing musically pleasing about this issue. Unlike the Mini and the 303, synth manufacturers will not be rushing to replicate an omnipresent 83 HZ drone on all their new synths. It can't be embraced, it can only be ignored. I look forward to hearing what, if anything, can be done about it. Fixing this would make a great instrument even better.

Every new synth has an issue or two. The difference with Moog is they really pay attention to these details. Look at the improvements they've already made! I've got screen and keybed issues on some of my other boards that will never get fixed because those manufacturers are already off to next year's model. I have every confidence that if it can be fixed Moog will fix it.

So at the end of the day I went from gritting my teeth over this thread to realizing that gencomprodukts (a tenacious fellow if there ever was one) was right. If this gets fixed it will be thanks to him (and his 487 posts). :wink:

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:37 pm

B3 guy, Thanks VERY MUCH for your Support :!:
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

DeckardTrinity
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by DeckardTrinity » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:48 pm

I hear it now on my Sub 37, same setup as before. It is much harder to detect on my HS80Ms though. Honestly I do not think this is going to bother me.

From a technical point of view, however, I do want to hear a reply from Moog regarding this artifact. I agree that it does not seem like the kind of sound one would expect from brand new oscillator chips. It is puzzling that it only occurs on the triangle / saw side of the fader - for me the sound fades out as you sweep from the saw to square wave.

Amos
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Amos » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:54 pm

Hey all, just posted an update on the Sub 37 mega-thread over on Gearslutz; it definitely deserves cross-posting here.

We found the source of the ~80Hz hum -- which is *tiny*, like 50dB lower than the oscillator tone -- and it can be fixed in firmware.

Clearly it is not a problem (or even audible) for a lot of players, which is great. But the folks with the golden ears were really hearing something, and we are wasting no time in correcting it. Expect pure sawtooth waves for even the most demanding listeners, coming in the next firmware update.


I do want to extend a special thanks to gencomprodukts, for pushing to get to the bottom of a subtle but real issue. Moog customers can be discerning, even demanding -- but they inspire us to keep making better instruments. Thank you!

-Amos

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jido-genshi
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by jido-genshi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:18 am

gencomprodukts wrote:Jido, it is not a question to know if i do like or don't, and i'm not spreading fear or doubt as you claim, for fun, i'm just pointing out a phenomenom which is uncommon on proper & analog new gears (even on the vintage ones except when something is broken). That's it.
If you want to spend your money in a synth with a drone sound on it, it's your business but there's people like me who don't think the same, please, thanks to understand.
My goal is not to have fun, i just want to know if this behavior is normal (as far as i know, we are still waiting for confirmation). Why? Just because if it's a fault i will wait for a solution and buy a second one. If not, i'll definitely not , that's it. I don't like this drone sound because i can't get a pure triangle or saw wave which is a problem for me and i beleive other people too, can u understand this?

And regarding the fact that you're a musician, i'm a professionnal composer working on several electronic industrial music projects since the early 80's and into contract with a major Belgian label. I've released many albums so frankly i've nothing to proove... (and we're not here for this, it's not the right place). To conclude, I'm not J. myself with only technical stuffs.


Amos wrote:Hey all, just posted an update on the Sub 37 mega-thread over on Gearslutz; it definitely deserves cross-posting here.

We found the source of the ~80Hz hum -- which is *tiny*, like 50dB lower than the oscillator tone -- and it can be fixed in firmware.

Clearly it is not a problem (or even audible) for a lot of players, which is great. But the folks with the golden ears were really hearing something, and we are wasting no time in correcting it. Expect pure sawtooth waves for even the most demanding listeners, coming in the next firmware update.


I do want to extend a special thanks to gencomprodukts, for pushing to get to the bottom of a subtle but real issue. Moog customers can be discerning, even demanding -- but they inspire us to keep making better instruments. Thank you!

-Amos



As I said, I would apologize if this is found as a definite issue, and it seems that it has. I apologize to you gencomprodukts for thinking you were just "nitpicking" over a non-issue. You truly do have some super-human ears... and patience! Though I still don't hear it myself (maybe I need better headphones now) I don't think it will affect me either way, but if Moog is making a fix for this and it does wind up improving anything significantly, then that can only be a good thing for everyone... thanks to you gencomprodukts.

:)

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:28 am

Up early in the UK listening to the results of the Scottish Referendum :D … Wanted to add my thanks to gencomprodukts for pointing out this issue. For me I can't actually hear it as clearly and it is not spoiling my enjoyment of the fabulous Sub37 but I know it is there from the FFTs I ran on gencomprodukts and my samples and would prefer it gone.

Also pleased to see that Amos has indeed 'popped his head in' and Moog are on the case


R.

bartleby
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by bartleby » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:40 am

@gencomprodukts, Rufus the Dog: thanks for uncovering and analyzing this issue!

@amos: good to hear that moog is working on a fix.

i'm a bit surprised that this can be fixed with a fw update.
what does that tell us about the origin of this issue?
and about how the s37's vcos work?

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HicoMe
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by HicoMe » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:45 am

Hi,

B3 guy wrote:The difference is that the things that were initially perceived as flaws on these units were musical and very useful and therefore came to be embraced. ... While everyone's mileage will vary on how big of a deal it is to their ears, there is nothing musically pleasing about this issue.


thanx for that! That is the thing, why it´s a fault and not a feature of the new VCO-design!

@jido-genshi: I had two Minimoogs and a Prodigy several years ago. Now as I´m making music again and my love for "the Moog-Sound" and the Moog Synthesizers newly awakened, I have bought the Sub37 - BUT NOT to have a 100%-copy of one of my old moogs!!! I really know, that this is impossible. Try to compare two Minis ... they didn´t sound identical. So how should a different designed Synth sound like the old ones? :wink:

BUT I´ve decide to buy a Sub 37, to recreate the typical classical Moog-Sounds as near as it is possible with the Sub37, beneath creating many new sounds, which are not possible to create with the Model D or the Prodigy. Some typical clean leadsounds of the old Moogs, created with saw and triangle are my favorites. And by recreating these sounds I love so much, the drone/issue is definetly present and doesn´t let you have this typical brilliant clean Moog Leadsounds, because this issue is not musical! And by the way, I have just normal Sennheiser headphones - 30 years old and at the time I bought them not expensive.

I really love the Sub 37, that´s a fact (look at the photo below) and I really don´t want to give it away anymore. But knowing that I can´t have these typical Moog-leads with a clean (undroned) sound I like so much, makes me a little bit sad. And so I hope, that Moog can fix this issue, hopefully with a firmware-update as Amos mentioned, so that I have not to send my Baby back for servicing. :D

Thanx to all, especially to gencomprodukts ... but also to Moog Music, which had designed a really nice synth - for me the best since the Moog Voyager ... and in a few days/weeks it will be absolutely perfect, I´m sure! :D

Image

Best regards
Heiko
My current Moogs: Sub 37
My former Moogs: Minimoog Model D, heavily selfmodified Prodigy, Satellite, Etherwave Theremin

elevation
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by elevation » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:57 am

Yeah, Kudos to gencomprodukts! I get the same results...but how could this be fixed with a fw update?

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:19 am

jido-genshi wrote:
gencomprodukts wrote:Jido, it is not a question to know if i do like or don't, and i'm not spreading fear or doubt as you claim, for fun, i'm just pointing out a phenomenom which is uncommon on proper & analog new gears (even on the vintage ones except when something is broken). That's it.
If you want to spend your money in a synth with a drone sound on it, it's your business but there's people like me who don't think the same, please, thanks to understand.
My goal is not to have fun, i just want to know if this behavior is normal (as far as i know, we are still waiting for confirmation). Why? Just because if it's a fault i will wait for a solution and buy a second one. If not, i'll definitely not , that's it. I don't like this drone sound because i can't get a pure triangle or saw wave which is a problem for me and i beleive other people too, can u understand this?

And regarding the fact that you're a musician, i'm a professionnal composer working on several electronic industrial music projects since the early 80's and into contract with a major Belgian label. I've released many albums so frankly i've nothing to proove... (and we're not here for this, it's not the right place). To conclude, I'm not J. myself with only technical stuffs.


Amos wrote:Hey all, just posted an update on the Sub 37 mega-thread over on Gearslutz; it definitely deserves cross-posting here.

We found the source of the ~80Hz hum -- which is *tiny*, like 50dB lower than the oscillator tone -- and it can be fixed in firmware.

Clearly it is not a problem (or even audible) for a lot of players, which is great. But the folks with the golden ears were really hearing something, and we are wasting no time in correcting it. Expect pure sawtooth waves for even the most demanding listeners, coming in the next firmware update.


I do want to extend a special thanks to gencomprodukts, for pushing to get to the bottom of a subtle but real issue. Moog customers can be discerning, even demanding -- but they inspire us to keep making better instruments. Thank you!

-Amos



As I said, I would apologize if this is found as a definite issue, and it seems that it has. I apologize to you gencomprodukts for thinking you were just "nitpicking" over a non-issue. You truly do have some super-human ears... and patience! Though I still don't hear it myself (maybe I need better headphones now) I don't think it will affect me either way, but if Moog is making a fix for this and it does wind up improving anything significantly, then that can only be a good thing for everyone... thanks to you gencomprodukts.

:)


I have to say that you were very hard with me (the hardest guy against my "golden ears" :D ) but i accept your appologies ;)
Last edited by gencomprodukts on Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:36 am

Amos wrote:Hey all, just posted an update on the Sub 37 mega-thread over on Gearslutz; it definitely deserves cross-posting here.

We found the source of the ~80Hz hum -- which is *tiny*, like 50dB lower than the oscillator tone -- and it can be fixed in firmware.

Clearly it is not a problem (or even audible) for a lot of players, which is great. But the folks with the golden ears were really hearing something, and we are wasting no time in correcting it. Expect pure sawtooth waves for even the most demanding listeners, coming in the next firmware update.


I do want to extend a special thanks to gencomprodukts, for pushing to get to the bottom of a subtle but real issue. Moog customers can be discerning, even demanding -- but they inspire us to keep making better instruments. Thank you!

-Amos


Thank you so much for recognizing my contribution and effort!
It was painfull and a particularly tough fight! Anyway, i'm glad that Moog engineers are able to fix the issue and i will buy a second unit (I had to return my unit and i feel so bad now... i have to wait xx weeks to get another one, it's still out of stock in France :( )
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

Dapifer
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Dapifer » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:53 pm

Amos wrote:Hey all, just posted an update on the Sub 37 mega-thread over on Gearslutz; it definitely deserves cross-posting here.

We found the source of the ~80Hz hum -- which is *tiny*, like 50dB lower than the oscillator tone -- and it can be fixed in firmware.

Clearly it is not a problem (or even audible) for a lot of players, which is great. But the folks with the golden ears were really hearing something, and we are wasting no time in correcting it. Expect pure sawtooth waves for even the most demanding listeners, coming in the next firmware update.


I do want to extend a special thanks to gencomprodukts, for pushing to get to the bottom of a subtle but real issue. Moog customers can be discerning, even demanding -- but they inspire us to keep making better instruments. Thank you!

-Amos


This is why I'll always trust in Moog products. :D

lushr
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by lushr » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:20 pm

I always have to put any buzz down to my house electric wiring. But it's good to see that this issue can be fixed by firmware - and example of great engineering from moog to have that level of control.
___________________________________________________
LP Stage II, LE Sub37

sztakics_isti
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by sztakics_isti » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Hi. I have my Sub 37 only for 7 days.
Firmware 1.0.3
I CAN HEAR THAT BUZZ (HUM) SOUND. As I read the forgoing topics, it seems to be a common problem for Moog Sub 37 units.
I tried to make a simple sine wave like sound using the triangle waveform and I used the following setttings:

OCS 1 - 2' triangle max volume on mixer section
OSC 2 - 2' triangle max volume on mixer section
Sub osc - 0
Noise - 0
Feedbck - 0

Cut off Filter - 320 Hz --> 80 Hz
Reso - 0
Multidrive 0

Slope 24 db
EG amount and KB amount 0

Filter ADSR - 10, 0, 10, 10
Amp ADSR - 0, 0, 10, 10

No LFO 1 & 2

and the HUM appeared. I did't noticed this problem before, when I was surfing through the factory presets.

And yes, the hum is present between the triangle and square waveforms. (12 o'clock position on the wave shape button).

I tried the same settings on a Moog SubPhatty and the hum is not present. The sound of the Sub Phatty is much clearer.

I registered my Moog on Moogmusic and described the problem yesterday (friday the 26 th of September). No answer until now. I hope I will get one monday.

Sadly that hum is bothering me, and I am disappointed becouse I was waiting for this synth so much. However I don't want to send it back, I would keep it and I will filter the hum out of my recordings using an EQ.
I hope that Moog will correct this issue with the next firmware update. ... and I hope the Moog will include a feature that shows the exact bpm rate on the LCD screen, as it was on the Little Phatty.

Please check my attached files.
Attachments
Moog Sub 37 Freq B abra.jpg
Moog Sub 37 Freq A abra.jpg

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