Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:33 am

gencomprodukts wrote:
Unfortunately i can't compare my Audio file with this one (for me there's only a sub bass, i can't hear any drone note the spectrum of the Triangle Wave).
Please, play the same note (high pitch range) with the same settings (see below) and filter wide open.
Thanks Rufus!

Settings: Panel Mode, one VCO, range 4 or 8, volume at 5 or below, triangle then saw waves, filter wide open, 24 db, no multidrive, feedback or Modulations then play the same high pitched note of my Audio file.


I will give it a go later today and see what I get


R.

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:38 am

Rufus the Dog wrote:
gencomprodukts wrote:
Unfortunately i can't compare my Audio file with this one (for me there's only a sub bass, i can't hear any drone note the spectrum of the Triangle Wave).
Please, play the same note (high pitch range) with the same settings (see below) and filter wide open.
Thanks Rufus!

Settings: Panel Mode, one VCO, range 4 or 8, volume at 5 or below, triangle then saw waves, filter wide open, 24 db, no multidrive, feedback or Modulations then play the same high pitched note of my Audio file.


I will give it a go later today and see what I get

Many thanks! :wink:

R.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by JonLukas » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:22 pm

Could you test your unit in Panel Mode? Open one VCO, range 4 or 8, volume at 5 or below, triangle wave, filter wide open, 24 db, no multidrive, feedback, Modulations and let us know? And an audio file would be great to compare. Thanks JonLukas!


Ok I did the test as you described. I am not hearing the low drone note that was problematic. I am on 1.0.2 now, and I was on 1.0.1 when I had the problem (only once, have not reproduced)...not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Here is the audio file...the oscillator does sound a little 'fuzzy' but I think that is by design (though I might have preferred a purer wave). But I am NOT hearing that weird drone note staying the same as I play different notes:
http://electricjazzgroove.com/moog-test/moog-test.wav
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:57 pm

JonLukas wrote:
Could you test your unit in Panel Mode? Open one VCO, range 4 or 8, volume at 5 or below, triangle wave, filter wide open, 24 db, no multidrive, feedback, Modulations and let us know? And an audio file would be great to compare. Thanks JonLukas!


Ok I did the test as you described. I am not hearing the low drone note that was problematic. I am on 1.0.2 now, and I was on 1.0.1 when I had the problem (only once, have not reproduced)...not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Here is the audio file...the oscillator does sound a little 'fuzzy' but I think that is by design (though I might have preferred a purer wave). But I am NOT hearing that weird drone note staying the same as I play different notes:
http://electricjazzgroove.com/moog-test/moog-test.wav


Thanks very much!
Well, i hear something at 0.23 (the highest pitched note) but it's absolutely not so loud as on my unit (now returned), the oscillator or your S37 seems to be normal.
Now I'm almost sure that my unit & the second one used by the polish tech was both defective (strange coincidence), but since you play "low pitch" on your recording (and the drone note is low so it's difficult to hear it when playing with lower octave), could you follow my notes & settings? (High pitch KB and VCO Range at 4")? Thanks in advance! :wink:
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

greenborder
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by greenborder » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:04 pm

I just tested and can confirm the harmonic content around 80hz. It is there even when i turn the volume of all oscillators down.

It dissapears as soon as I turn the amp envelope off (all env parameters to 0).

To be honest my ears didn't pick it up but it's quite odd indeed.

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:22 pm

Ok, so I have been running a few tests. I recorded a constant G6 whilst slowly turning the shape knob from triangle to sawtooth.

Have a listen https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/480 ... 201221.wav and see if you can hear anything

I then used some analysis software called 'SignalScope' to look at shape and frequency spectrum. I need to edit the images together and post in a bit but the upshot is that I also have a constant 82Hz tone regardless of note played. It is a lot lower than the note level but it is there.

I also noted that the 82Hz 'modulation' of the note waveform was worse about the third index line clockwise on the shape knob.

I'll add one image here ….


R.
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:35 pm

Rufus the Dog wrote:Ok, so I have been running a few tests. I recorded a constant G6 whilst slowly turning the shape knob from triangle to sawtooth.

Have a listen https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/480 ... 201221.wav and see if you can hear anything

I then used some analysis software called 'SignalScope' to look at shape and frequency spectrum. I need to edit the images together and post in a bit but the upshot is that I also have a constant 82Hz tone regardless of note played. It is a lot lower than the note level but it is there.

I also noted that the 82Hz 'modulation' of the note waveform was worse about the third index line clockwise on the shape knob.

I'll add one image here ….


R.


Many thanks for this! Unfortunately for you too, there's a constant low drone note in the spectrum of the vco (between Square and Triangle), Bingo! Though not as loud as mine, it's present. The polish seller and i are right, it's not only an issue only with my unit (now returned) but a "feature" :shock:
i have good ear & i'm not stupid :mrgreen:
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:00 pm

Time for a high pass filter then :D .. I can just hear the low tone but mostly when the shape is 'pure' triangle and it needs headphones clamped to my ears !

It will be interesting if Amos or anyone else from Moog pops there head in and give a techie explanation


R.

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by HicoMe » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:15 pm

Hello,

I have now also checked my Sub 37 (#385 - OS 1.0.3) and yes, I have also this drone-sound, audible if one (or both) oscillator is switched on and playing on higher octaves. It is always there, if I have select a waveform between triangle and sawtooth and it just begins to disappear, when I turn the waveform-knob clockwise from sawtooth to the rectangular-waveform. Approximately in the half of the way between sawtooth and rectangular it dissapears completely. And because of that this "drone-wave" never change it´s pitch even which note I play on the keyboard, it cannot be a wanted feature of the designers... :cry: Sorry Moog Music, but this isn´t nice and has to be eliminated, but I fear, that a software-update can`t help ... :? And now?

It´s so sad, because I really like the new Sub 37. But now that I know about this Drone-Sound in the background, I hear it always when I play in higher octaves, and on some sounds this drone could be really annoying. For example on distorted sounds, when the Waveforms of both VCO´s are cancel themselves, when they are in phase. In this moment you can hear this drone-sound relatively loud. The same without distortion, when you play soft triangle or sawtooth leadsounds with unison VCO´s, and the filter-cutoff is something around 500Hz.

@ Moog Music: Please, do something to eliminate this fault. I don´t want to give back my new Moog because I really like it´s architecture, sound, optic, ... The keyboard-problems reported in another thread is not a big problem for me. For me it feels not perfect, but o.k. and I can live with it. But this drone-sound in the background of the triangle- and sawtooth-waveforms are not o.k. ...

Best regards
Heiko
My current Moogs: Sub 37
My former Moogs: Minimoog Model D, heavily selfmodified Prodigy, Satellite, Etherwave Theremin

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:57 pm

Hi Heiko

All credit to gencomprodukts for first posting about the effect but it seems, without doubt, it is a design issue. Even if I cannot hear it too clearly that may be entirely due to what I am listening with and ears :D … the FFTs I ran on both gencomprodukts samples and my own Sub37 (Serial No. 1221) display an 82Hz signal and harmonics.

Given that the frequency of the 'drone/buzz/hum' does not move with note value would suggest it does not originate in the VCOs themselves, and I cannot see where in the Analogue chain such a fixed frequency spike would originate. That leads me to suspect digit aspects of the Sub37, for example is the led back light or display 'strobed' in anyway?

I mention that because my suspicion is that the very similar Sub Phatty does not exhibit this 'feature' and the Sub 37, apart from being a front-panel-expanded-Sub-Phatty has some extra 'smarts' and a back lit display etc.

R.

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:29 pm

Rufus the Dog wrote:Hi Heiko

All credit to gencomprodukts for first posting about the effect but it seems, without doubt, it is a design issue. Even if I cannot hear it too clearly that may be entirely due to what I am listening with and ears :D … the FFTs I ran on both gencomprodukts samples and my own Sub37 (Serial No. 1221) display an 82Hz signal and harmonics.

Given that the frequency of the 'drone/buzz/hum' does not move with note value would suggest it does not originate in the VCOs themselves, and I cannot see where in the Analogue chain such a fixed frequency spike would originate. That leads me to suspect digit aspects of the Sub37, for example is the led back light or display 'strobed' in anyway?

I mention that because my suspicion is that the very similar Sub Phatty does not exhibit this 'feature' and the Sub 37, apart from being a front-panel-expanded-Sub-Phatty has some extra 'smarts' and a back lit display etc.

R.


Hi Heiko,
Generaly it is an issue with the VCA. I've already got the same behavior on my Prophet 5 and Memorymoog and it was a faulty VCA chip.

But after the check with a second S37, the polish distributor had this to say : We hear the "buzz" you are talking about, but in our opinion this is rather a "feature" than the "fault". Most probably it has something to do with the frequency of the sound from the oscillator(s) and interaction between them and the filter/multidrive.

Now we need to know if it's a feature or not.
Last edited by gencomprodukts on Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by JonLukas » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:35 pm

gencomprodukts and everyone:

Thanks to everyones input I can now definitely reproduce the problem. gencomprodukts, I did the same test but with higher notes. The drone sound is definitely there.

UNFILTERED:
http://electricjazzgroove.com/moog-test/filter-open.wav

It's harder with my 8" studio monitors (I have to turn up pretty loud to hear, but in the headphones, the drone is definitely there.

To make things easier to hear, I did the same test with the filter mostly closed (one notch above 320Hz), so the high notes that I'm playing are very quiet. After normalizing the file (originally 24 bit), the drone is very easy to hear even without headphones.

FILTERED:
http://electricjazzgroove.com/moog-test/filtered.wav

So yes now I see/hear exactly what is going on.
Pianoteq, Guda KickR, Drumaxx, Diva, Pigments, Flow Motion, Kontakt, Omnisphere 2, StudioLogic SL73, MainStage, Logic Pro X.
Downtempo performed live: http://echofabric.com

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by HicoMe » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:42 pm

Hello Rufus,

Rufus the Dog wrote:All credit to gencomprodukts for first posting about the effect ...


Yes, thats right - thanx to gencomprodukts. :) I have just check it today, because I´m reading here about this problem and I wondered, if my Sub37 has this fault too. ... I´ve got my synth just 2 weeks ago, but I havn´t spend that very much time for checking all. The time I have had since delivery of it I used for having fun with the fantastic sound and features of it, mainly in bass- and effectsounds although it would be time for me to programm some leads, because I want to use the Moog in the Rockband I´m playing in. But I also have fun with electronic music and so I have played with the Moog some more electronic-band sounds. :D While I´having so much fun with it, I didn´t analyzed the clean sound of the higher ranges (I´m not an analyzer, I´m a musician :mrgreen:) and so I didn´t noticed the unwanted drone-sound.

Rufus the Dog wrote:… the FFTs I ran on both gencomprodukts samples and my own Sub37 (Serial No. 1221) display an 82Hz signal and harmonics.


I have no opportunity to measure that, but by comparing the audio-files of gencomprodukts with my Sub37 I´m sure that my new Moog has exactly the same fault.

Rufus the Dog wrote:Given that the frequency of the 'drone/buzz/hum' does not move with note value would suggest it does not originate in the VCOs themselves, and I cannot see where in the Analogue chain such a fixed frequency spike would originate. That leads me to suspect digit aspects of the Sub37, for example is the led back light or display 'strobed' in anyway?


I´m just a little bit in electronics, but that´s also what I thought of. If it would be the backlight of the LCD, they could programm it so, that it turns of automatically after you have turn a knob or pushed a switch and turns on again automatically, if you activate a function, that needs the LCD ... I hope the guys at Moog are checking our "drone-sound-problem", find the fault and also a way to eleminate it - because I really love this little new Moogy. 8)

Rufus the Dog wrote:I mention that because my suspicion is that the very similar Sub Phatty does not exhibit this 'feature' and the Sub 37, apart from being a front-panel-expanded-Sub-Phatty has some extra 'smarts' and a back lit display etc.


A good explanation Rufus - what are the Moog-designers thinking of?

Best regards
Heiko
My current Moogs: Sub 37
My former Moogs: Minimoog Model D, heavily selfmodified Prodigy, Satellite, Etherwave Theremin

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:48 pm

JonLukas wrote:gencomprodukts and everyone:

Thanks to everyones input I can now definitely reproduce the problem. gencomprodukts, I did the same test but with higher notes. The drone sound is definitely there.

UNFILTERED:
http://electricjazzgroove.com/moog-test/filter-open.wav

It's harder with my 8" studio monitors (I have to turn up pretty loud to hear, but in the headphones, the drone is definitely there.

To make things easier to hear, I did the same test with the filter mostly closed (one notch above 320Hz), so the high notes that I'm playing are very quiet. After normalizing the file (originally 24 bit), the drone is very easy to hear even without headphones.

FILTERED:
http://electricjazzgroove.com/moog-test/filtered.wav

So yes now I see/hear exactly what is going on.


Yes, it's there :(
good luck to get clean tones with this drone sound. I remember trying to reproduce my SUB PHATTY soft leads with the S37 but never succeed. With this drone sound, it was useless...
If you're using the S37 only for bass, it's not a big deal because it's a low range buzz/drone but if you want to use it for nice leads or vintage analog flutes it's a big problem, trust me, i tried...
Last edited by gencomprodukts on Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by jido-genshi » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:24 pm

gencomprodukts wrote:
Yes, it's there :(
good luck to get clean tones with this drone sound. I remember trying to reproduce my soft SUB PHATTY leads with the S37 but i never succeed. With this drone sound, it was useless...
If you're using the S37 only for bass, it's not a big deal because it's a low range buzz/drone but if you want to use it for nice leads it's a big problem, trust me, i tried...


Bull. I've created plenty of nice soft mellow leads with it and made videos of this over the past several weeks. You just don't like this synth and are spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Even if I'm wrong and you truly want to love the Sub 37 and there is a design flaw in it (which nobody noticed until you pounded it into their ears over and over again) I'm going to repeat what I said in the "other" forum:
-----------------------------
I think you've obsessed SO much on this one particular "anomaly" that you never had the chance to actually enjoy the synth itself!

What exactly, in this "issue" that you perceive, has prevented you in making music? Seriously, I am honestly asking. Because if you can't make incredible sounds and music out of this synth (like many others are already doing) then there is more going on than the synth itself... And as I mentioned before, if you don't like the sound, get a refund, which it seems you have... but you just can't let this go can you?

But here is the real thing, if it's not by design, let's just say, it's an actual design mistake, and you caught it because you were expecting it to sound exactly like the Sub Phatty (which it's not, it's it's own synth) this isn't the first time something like this has happened... when Moog first started making synths way back when, and they first made the Minimoog, as they started production on them they realized, too late, that the engineer made a mis-calculation when designing the filter; resulting in it being overdriven way more than it was supposed to. But it was too late to fix it... and now it is arguably the most sought after filter in the synth world because of this! (see video at 6:04 History of the Minimoog Synthesizer - YouTube )

Same thing here, by design or not, I am glad the Sub 37 doesn't sound exactly like the Sub Phatty when focusing only on that one raw Oscillator while sweeping the waveform and closely listening on a really good pair of headphones. :roll:

It is it's own synth with it's own character... and while you go on obsessing about this one little anomaly, even after you have returned it, I and others are actually producing music with it! Enough said.
-----------------------------
And with that, I DO apologize for coming off so harsh towards you, but I really do think you are making much ado about nothing... but in my opinion, in my 37+ years of playing synths (and even longer as a musician in general; staring as a drummer in the late 1960s and a guitarist in 1972) this is not an issue that would prevent anyone from making incredibly beautiful sounds and music with the Sub 37. Every synth has it's own character... some originally thought the Roland TB303 had a flaw and couldn't accurately produce realistic bass like it was intended to, but that flaw spawned a whole new genre of music (you know, acid techno.)

And I could go on, but I guarantee you, a few years from now people will be looking for "that Sub 37 sound" that you can't get on the Voyager, the Little Phatty or even the Sub Phatty. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize again to you, but in the mean time, I'll be writing, producing, recording and releasing more music with it... :shock:

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