Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

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bartleby
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by bartleby » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:02 pm

@amos: thanks for explaining! to my ears, my s37's oscillators sound superb.
i just found that discontinuity thing a bit disconcerting, because it's quite unexpected. that knob just seems to suggest a smoother morph between waveforms. but it's definitely something i can live with. and as justaboy has suggested, it can probably even be put to some good musical use. i'll explore this some time...

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:26 pm

Amos wrote:Regarding the reported buzz sound, Moog engineering is taking this report very seriously and looking very carefully at all aspects of the oscillator design, to be sure it's behaving well.
just a note to say that we're taking your feedback seriously and working to make sure that everything is as good as it can be.

Cheers,

Amos


Great Amos, thanks very much. So i guess you can hear this buzz sound through my Audio Files (strange that most people can't... it is so present for me and my entourage)
I must received a new S37 very soon as replacement (thanks to Audiostajca Poland) so i will let u know if this buzz is still there on this new one (hope not :( ).
I hope it was a defective unit (serial number: SBT00253, it should be back to your office very soon), not a normal behavior because once again this is something i never noticed with my Sub Phatty, it's pretty weird.
Thanks for all!
Laurent
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:57 am

Hi There (and Amos if you're reading).
Here are some news.
- Today i received the following mail from the Polish distributor :

"We received the unit and it has been checked by the service department. We have replicated your settings and the sound you described. We also set exactly the same setting on the other unit we have. They sound identical. We hear the "buzz" you are talking about, but in our opinion this is rather a "feature" than the "fault". Most probably it has something to do with the frequency of the sound from the oscillator(s) and interaction between them and the filter/multidrive."
In this case all we can do is:

1. Send the unit back to you (or ship the other one - your choice). Unfortunately we will have to charge you for shipping.
2. Cancel the transaction and return the money.

Please let me know what you think.


So, 1st i'm not stupid or the only guy able to hear this anoying buzz/ground loop sound, and 2nd they replicated the phenomenon on other units so unfortunately that's not an issue :(
Too bad that the oscillators on the S37 are not excatly the same as Sub Phatty (cleaner).

My question is : Is there a way to fix it?
Last edited by gencomprodukts on Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

JustABoy
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by JustABoy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:12 am

Thanks everyone and Amos,

As it happens I am only on 1.0.2 as shipped, I will change up and try again. Sounds as if it's been nailed on that version.
I quite like the wave discontinuity actually!

Not come across any distortion, noise, nonlinear (or nonlogear, ahem) control behaviour or anything I can say is not 'character' yet (and I am pretty critical, sent my MS20 Mini back for the GROSS filter noise / DC / thumps with both osc's down - that kind of bad design / lack of QA stuff gets my goat and is such a waste).

Moog Music - well done on the design of this, class AND features, cake and eat it, laurels are definitely NOT being rested on here and Dave must be sweating... ! 5* :-)

It's a good thing I don't want rid of my LP tribute - prices on UK ebay - I've seen HALF :-|
SN 1213

Cheers all

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:24 pm

A/B VCO test between Sub37 and SubPatty.
Same settings (Filter wide open, 24db, vco volume below 5, no Multidrive/feedback), same notes.
As you can hear, the Sub Phatty is cleaner. I hope you'll be able to hear the difference (and i'm not talking about the artefacts when sweeping to waveforms but this constant "buzz" or "ground loop" sound behind the VCO of the S37 on each notes).

Sub37 : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/975 ... nt%202.wav
SubPhatty: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/975 ... nt%203.wav

Let me know what you think and sorry for these brutal high pitched sounds.
Last edited by gencomprodukts on Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:50 am

I am seeing some low frequency artefacts on the Sub 37 sample. that don't appear as large on the Sub Phatty. I don't know if this is the issue you are hearing.

I am using a program called Wavepad, selecting a 1 second sample of a note and looking at the FFT output. On the Sub 37 I can see a spike around 82Hz and harmonics, regardless of note, that I do not see nearly as large on the Sub Phatty.

I will try and upload some graphics but if you could record a few seconds of a single note on both synths then upload I can be more precise.


R.
Attachments
SubPhatty-Sub37.jpg

DeckardTrinity
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by DeckardTrinity » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:06 am

I listened through an X32 Rack to Sennheiser HD650 headphones, and tbh, the only thing I hear is the Sub 37 oscillators sounding much brighter than the SP oscs (as designed). My ears aren't detecting any anomalies in the Sub 37 waveforms.

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_DemonDan_
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by _DemonDan_ » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:24 pm

Obviously, everyone has their own opinions and desires for a synth, so it's hard to say something definitively that will be agreeable to all Sub 37 owners (and potential owners).

But, speaking only for myself (and having programed the Sub 37 on a fairly consistent basis for almost 6 months now):

Of all the things I've wished could be changed, many already have been changed via a software update, and more cool functionality will certainly be added in the future. But I've never once been programing and wished that the oscillators sounded differently than they do. If I didn't like them, those kinds of thoughts would haunt me every time I sat down and tweaked. But they don't... as I very much like the sound of the Sub 37.

Part of it, I suppose, is that I'm not using the Sub 37 as a substitute for a pre-existing instrument (like I would on a keyboard that's supposed to *exactly* replicate some famous synth or effect). Instead, I approach the Sub 37 exactly as it has been designed to sound, and then create the coolest presets I can possibly make on it. In all cases, where there was something that I wished was different, it always has to do with wanting yet another parameter or an additional choice on an existing parameter.

If the Sub 37 doesn't sound the way you wish your synthesizer would sound, the answer is far more likely to be found in a different synth as opposed to returning it for yet another Sub 37 (that will also sound like a Sub 37). Nor is a software update likely to change it into a different-sounding synthesizer. As stated in various posts above, the Sub 37 sounds exactly the way the designers intended for it to sound.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:50 pm

Further to my previous post, which has yet to be moderated and appear… I have now had the opportunity to compare the two wav files on headphone and I can hear a low hum (rather than buzz) on the Sub37 sample.


R.

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:19 pm

Rufus the Dog wrote:Further to my previous post, which has yet to be moderated and appear… I have now had the opportunity to compare the two wav files on headphone and I can hear a low hum (rather than buzz) on the Sub37 sample.


R.

Alleluia! :D
There's a few people on another famous forum too.
It's so present that i don't even know how people can't hear this weird sound (seems that most people don't have good ears or are newbies with substractive synthesis).
Most people think i'm crazy or stupid but there's a drone note/hum or buzz sound centered around the note E2 (first E below middle C) present all the time.

Anyway, i've just get a refund by the polish seller but i'm not happy with Moog support in general.
They never reply to my email :roll:
So i don't even know if that's an issue or a normal behavior (the polish distributor have exactly replicated the same settings on a second unit and both sound identical. This drone note when sweeping from Saw to Triangle is present. According to them this is rather a "feature" than the "fault" which is pretty weird don't u think? How can u get a clean Triangle or Sawtooth wave with this drone sound... I'm sure that my unit was a faulty one (and maybe the second one used for the test) but i have no proof.
I have to know because if that's an issue, i'll buy a second one but if that's a "feature" i will definitely not!

Is there someone ready to test his S37 with the same basic settings? (Same notes, VCO triangle then Saw, Range 8 or 4, volume below 5, no multidrive or feedback, Filter wide open, 24 db and the same notes).
An audio file would be great to compare.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

JonLukas
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by JonLukas » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:51 pm

there's a drone note/hum or buzz sound centered around the note E2 (first E below middle C) present all the time.


I did have one session where I was sure this very thing was happening. I messed with it for a bit and kept having this problem. It was definitely a low drone note that did not change pitch regardless of the note being played. If I remember correctly, I was only having the problem with a new preset I was creating. I could not reproduce it starting from other presets. I kept messing with it and then the problem went away. I think at the time I attributed it to a mixer setting that was too high...causing some weird distortion. I don't seem to have this problem anymore, but I do remember that hour or so when it was undeniable. If the problem were to have continued, I'd definitely be looking for a resolution or returning the synth. But the problem has not come back since that once session. I am not sure it was due to distortion/mixer overload but that was my best guess at the time.
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gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:57 pm

JonLukas wrote:
there's a drone note/hum or buzz sound centered around the note E2 (first E below middle C) present all the time.


I did have one session where I was sure this very thing was happening. I messed with it for a bit and kept having this problem. It was definitely a low drone note that did not change pitch regardless of the note being played. If I remember correctly, I was only having the problem with a new preset I was creating. I could not reproduce it starting from other presets. I kept messing with it and then the problem went away. I think at the time I attributed it to a mixer setting that was too high...causing some weird distortion. I don't seem to have this problem anymore, but I do remember that hour or so when it was undeniable. If the problem were to have continued, I'd definitely be looking for a resolution or returning the synth. But the problem has not come back since that once session. I am not sure it was due to distortion/mixer overload but that was my best guess at the time.


Could you test your unit in Panel Mode? Open one VCO, range 4 or 8, volume at 5 or below, triangle wave, filter wide open, 24 db, no multidrive, feedback, Modulations and let us know? And an audio file would be great to compare. Thanks JonLukas!
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:23 am

Here is a couple of seconds of the Sub37 sample above with a lot of filtering to remove the note and leave the hum. You need headphones

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/480 ... %20hum.wav


R.

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Rufus the Dog
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by Rufus the Dog » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:43 am

Interesting….. E2 is 82.4Hz and my earlier FFT shows a spike at roughly 82Hz


R.

gencomprodukts
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Re: Problem with Sub 37 (buzz sound)

Post by gencomprodukts » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:02 am

Rufus the Dog wrote:Here is a couple of seconds of the Sub37 sample above with a lot of filtering to remove the note and leave the hum. You need headphones

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/480 ... %20hum.wav


R.


Unfortunately i can't compare my Audio file with this one (for me there's only a sub bass, i can't hear any drone note the spectrum of the Triangle Wave).
Please, play the same note (high pitch range) with the same settings (see below) and filter wide open.
Thanks Rufus!

Settings: Panel Mode, one VCO, range 4 or 8, volume at 5 or below, triangle then saw waves, filter wide open, 24 db, no multidrive, feedback or Modulations then play the same high pitched note of my Audio file.
MOOG Memorymoog+, Sub 37, CP251, ROLAND SH-1, SH-2, SH-7, SH101, Juno 60, SVC350, TR808, SCI Prophet 5 Rev.3.1, KORG Mono/poly, KR55, OBERHEIM SEM, WALDORF Microwave 1, DSI Prophet 08 Desktop PE, BOSS DR-55, BassBot TT303, AKAI MPC1000 JJOS2XL.

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