Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

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goldphinga
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Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by goldphinga » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:16 pm

So, anyone got both and want to chime in on how they sound next to each other? Similar? Different? Crossover?

Very interested to know!
Moog Gear: Voyager AE,LP Stage 2+CV outs (Blue LED's/Wheels, MF104SD, MF101 Filter, MF103 Phaser, Source, Memorymoog+, Minitaur.

IgorCristo
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by IgorCristo » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:46 pm

This is the kind of post that will generate a lot of fuzz....... I'll do it anyway.

I don't own or had the chance to play with the Sub 37, but I can say that, sound-wise, it is closer to the Sub and not the Little Phatty. Considering my experience with both Little and Sub Phatty, there are things that I can compare on both.

- The filter tonality and resonance interaction with cutoff are the ones I enjoy more. Sub's filter seems to cut too much bass for my taste, different from what you get with the Voyager and LP.
- Waveshape on the Sub is not as continuous as on the LP, and you get a jump between saw and saw/square mix, which is odd and seems to be universal (I see a lot of guys complaining about this).
- LFOs on the Sub are faster, but you can't really do what the LP does by using OSC2 as an LFO source, bringing FM to the table.
- There's a lot of new features on the Sub that makes it interesting, even with a sound that is less inviting than the LP. You get a sub-osc, noise source (one of the bests I've ever heard), EG repeat, LFO key tracking and a lot of other cool stuff.
- One thing that bothers me is that although you can use the oscillators with exponential detune, just as on the LP, the linear stuff makes it sound less interesting. The OSC on the Sub are way too steady for my taste.
- Quality control isn't on the same level as older Moog products... this is what I get from all complains about flawed builds around the forums. Maybe the Sub 37 will escape this... My Sub Phatty wasn't properly calibrated filter-wise, and I had to do it by myself (with the help of our dear Amos).

One last thing: the latest demonstrations I've seen doesn't do any of Sub instruments a fair justice in terms of sounds. They're always distorted and that doesn't appeal to me at all on a Moog synth. I'd rather use FM8 or something else with distortions if I wanted to do some heavy distorted dubstep sounds. The Sub is capable of some beautiful and thick traditional analog sounds.

This is something I've made with the Sub Phatty:
http://youtu.be/bibkWDO9Bmo

To me, a beautiful Moogy horn/brassy lead.

Cheers!
Moog Minimoog Voyager Performer Edition and Little Phatty Stage II | Elektron Analog Four and Analog Rytm | Mutable Instruments Ambika | Korg Minilogue

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_DemonDan_
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by _DemonDan_ » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:49 pm

goldphinga wrote:So, anyone got both and want to chime in on how they sound next to each other? Similar? Different? Crossover?
Hi goldphinga,

This is a tough one to do because, on one hand, you can make the argument that many of the differences are so slight that they'd be almost impossible for non-Moog-fanatics to perceive (especially in a non-isolated musical mix).

On the other hand, this is a forum of Moog fanatics. So here are two very specific comparisons:

When feeding the white noise of a CP-251 into its MULT, and then sending the same exact noise to the Ext Ins of both a Little Phatty and a Sub 37, and doing my level best to level match them (with the Sub 37's Ext In at 12 o'clock so as not to distort), and insuring that there are no control sources (including KB Tracking) modulating Cutoff, I can say:

With both Filter Cutoffs wide open, the Little Phatty is definitely a little brighter on the very top end. And that the Sub 37 has noticeably more power around the upper mids.

Sorry that I can't give you exact frequencies, but I don't have anything handy at the moment to definitively measure them.

With both units' Osc 1 Wave fully counter-clockwise, it seems that the Little Phatty has quieter non-fundamental harmonics.

With both units' Osc 1 Wave fully clockwise, it seems that the Sub 37 can go thinner with its pulse.

But, when I randomly set one of the Osc Wave knobs, I found that (except for those extremes) I could, by ear, turn the other's Wave knob and find the same sonic result.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

lushr
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by lushr » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:35 am

IgorCristo wrote:
- The filter tonality and resonance interaction with cutoff are the ones I enjoy more. Sub's filter seems to cut too much bass for my taste.

- One thing that bothers me is that although you can use the oscillators with exponential detune, just as on the LP, the linear stuff makes it sound less interesting. The OSC on the Sub are way too steady for my taste.

- Quality control isn't on the same level as older Moog products... this is what I get from all complains about flawed builds around the forums. Maybe the Sub 37 will escape this... My Sub Phatty wasn't properly calibrated filter-wise, and I had to do it by myself (with the help of our dear Amos).

Cheers!
I gotta say after one of my first in depth plays of the sub 37 today, I was getting really frustrated at the apparent inability to detuned the oscillators just that bit to create breadth. This is a trick I've done on most of my other synths, and while it doesn't matter too much at the bass end, the upper octaves end up sounding very brassy which is not to my taste. I'm guessing this is the digital control of the oscillators,

and yes the sweep from triangle to saw and through is very patchy. Having both oscillators on triangle cut sound altogether.

I'm also finding the filters cutting too much basso it, creating that brassy tone again, instead of the rumbled expect from something designed for the Taurus.

I am by no means an expert, but my LP was mothballed when the sub 37 came home, yet now I'm finding the lp preset 29 (a Taurus bass) is still the mother of all bass sounds for me it is my ideal moog sound, so I'm unpacking it again tonight (and looking for another bloody 5m lead).

How would I know if my sub 37 needs adjustment?
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ChiLam
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by ChiLam » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:19 am

Adding any amount of resonance on the 37 instantly attenuates the bass on my unit. It would be really good to have a bit more low end power together with some resonance but I don't suppose this will be possible - it seems inherent to the filters design from what I read online but you never know, Amos or Demon Dan?

mmarsh100
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by mmarsh100 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:32 pm

When adding resonance, I also add overdrive to beef it up. It is characteristic of the Moog filter to lose bass with increasing resonance. The Overdrive adds girth!

*EDIT* I have no problem detuning the oscillators against each other.

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_DemonDan_
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by _DemonDan_ » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:16 pm

IgorCristo wrote:- One thing that bothers me is that although you can use the oscillators with exponential detune, just as on the LP, the linear stuff makes it sound less interesting.The OSCs on the Sub 37 are way too steady for my taste.
Using a *combination* of the OSC 2 FREQUENCY (Hz) and BEAT FREQ (Cents) settings allows you to perfectly dial in the desired amounts of both linear and exponential detuning. (You can even make one positive and the other negative for interesting results across the keyboard.)

An upcoming GLOBAL parameter called VARIANCE will allow you to add a desired amount of instability to the two Oscillators' tunings as well.
lushr wrote:I gotta say after one of my first in depth plays of the Sub 37 today, I was getting really frustrated at the apparent inability to detuned the oscillators just that bit to create breadth.
Hmmm... I slightly detune the Sub 37 Oscillators all the time with great success.
And I gently modulate the Oscillators' WAVEshapes. And gently modulate the Filter Cutoff.

I've done this with over 100 original presets. Each time I'm surprised at how much life I can get out of the Sub 37 before I kick in ANY external effects.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

ChiLam
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by ChiLam » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:20 pm

mmarsh100 wrote:When adding resonance, I also add overdrive to beef it up. It is characteristic of the Moog filter to lose bass with increasing resonance. The Overdrive adds girth!
Very good advice again mmarsh100! The Multidrive does seem to magically replace quite a lot of the lower frequencies that are lost when turning up the resonance :D

No problems with the detuning of oscillators here either. There is quite alot of chatter on the forums about the 37 not being able to do "warm" or "vintage" tones but with the detune, beat frequencey, variance and waveshaping options these tones, to my ears at least, seem to spring forth with abundance. :wink:

vinnyburns
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by vinnyburns » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:30 pm

_DemonDan_ wrote: Hmmm... I slightly detune the Sub 37 Oscillators all the time with great success.
And I gently modulate the Oscillators' WAVEshapes. And gently modulate the Filter Cutoff.
I think the point being made was that it's only the first couple of mm of the pots travel from centre detent that are the sweet spot and its difficult to fine tune. Same with setting vibrato in the mod section. All the settings you want to get at are in that first couple of mm of travel.
Still manageable either way. Might be nice to have a shift function to fine tune?

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_DemonDan_
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by _DemonDan_ » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:52 pm

vinnyburns wrote:I think the point being made was that it's only the first couple of mm of the pots travel from centre detent that are the sweet spot and its difficult to fine tune. Same with setting vibrato in the MOD section. All the settings you want to get at are in that first couple of mm of travel.
Hi vinnyburns,

I've posted this before, but it's worth repeating.

You can make ALL of your MOD AMT knobs much finer if you set the CTRL4 AMT parameter (in the MOD 1 & MOD 2 CONTROLLERS Editor) to something like 70%.

Assuming you're not sending the Sub 37 CC#2 (Breath Controller) data, all of the knobs in the MOD section will now be 70% weaker, allowing you to find your sweet spot using 70% more travel.

If you find that you can't get deep enough modulation from one of your MOD AMT knobs, go back to CTRL4 AMT and set it to 50% (or whatever).
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

GregVDS
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by GregVDS » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:12 pm

Amazing tip Dan, thanks alot for this :-).

I'll go and test that asap.

Greg

vinnyburns
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by vinnyburns » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:18 pm

_DemonDan_ wrote:
vinnyburns wrote:I think the point being made was that it's only the first couple of mm of the pots travel from centre detent that are the sweet spot and its difficult to fine tune. Same with setting vibrato in the MOD section. All the settings you want to get at are in that first couple of mm of travel.
Hi vinnyburns,

I've posted this before, but it's worth repeating.

You can make ALL of your MOD AMT knobs much finer if you set the CTRL4 AMT parameter (in the MOD 1 & MOD 2 CONTROLLERS Editor) to something like 70%.

Assuming you're not sending the Sub 37 CC#2 (Breath Controller) data, all of the knobs in the MOD section will now be 70% weaker, allowing you to find your sweet spot using 70% more travel.

If you find that you can't get deep enough modulation from one of your MOD AMT knobs, go back to CTRL4 AMT and set it to 50% (or whatever).
Excellent tip Dan. Thanks :-)
Would still be nice to have a shift function for OSC 2 fine tune.

lushr
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by lushr » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:03 pm

I must point out that I still love the sound of my sub 37

But in trying to emulate the Duo Organ sound to learn how it was built, I've had great difficulty. I'm really itching for the editor to come out so I can see all the parameters for the Duo Organ preset, they're using noise in there but I don't know how it'd being used, presumably modulated.
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_DemonDan_
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Re: Sub 37 vs Little Phatty: Sonics

Post by _DemonDan_ » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:16 pm

vinnyburns wrote:Excellent tip Dan. Thanks :-)
Would still be nice to have a shift function for OSC 2 FREQUENCY and BEAT FREQ.
Someday, when the display screen shows knob values, we can ask if we can edit the values from the display. If we can, then it'll be easy to nudge those parameters by single units of value with the Up/Dwn buttons.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

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