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Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:17 pm
by Backbeatdeano
Damn this is some seriously awesome news!

Don't have to worry to much about variance in envelopes if your playing sustained notes. Would be another cool thing though, Although personally Osc drift would make a lot bigger difference to me when designing sounds. I often find myself making things which a slightly wonky!!

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:27 pm
by pnorris79
Is this something that can be added to the sub phatty? I didn't need paraphony or a sequencer but would like some "variance" sometimes.

Also it would be great if it ever so slightly varied the waveshape.

for now I'll keep recording a pass of very slight osc2 pitch knob movement to the daw.

Also, hi. First post regarding my first Moog.

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:29 pm
by Amos
I simply forgot to mention the Variance parameter in the Sonic State Sub 37 video... to my regret!
I didn't realize there was so much interest in this feature, really... but some folks who are testing it seem to like it a lot.

Regarding the Sub Phatty, my schedule is difficult the next few months but I will do what I can to make a small Sub Phatty update.
The features I'd like to add are poly-chain and pitch variance.

Just a small note, the reason I'm calling it Variance and not Drift, specifically, is that it isn't a "drift" like adding a random LFO... it's a random detuning that only changes with each new note. This means a long held note will maintain its pitch. But if you repeat the same note, it might be a few cents different each time. This seems to be a good way to do it, in practice.

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:49 pm
by _DemonDan_
Blackout wrote:the slight randomness of the attack time just makes every keypress/note sound slightly different and ....unique. less static. less "sterile".

Play a bunch of 16th notes like a machine gun rapid-fire on a Minimoog, and then on the Sub37 and listen to the bite of the attack youll see what i mean. not only does the actual note start time "drift" slightly , but the attack time changes ever so slightly as well. Some notes take slightly longer for the filter to "wow" up...etc. its all very subtle but the ear picks it up for sure.

Sometimes I wonder if these other differences are more about the slight random detuning of the oscillators that makes it *seem* like the attacks and filter blooms are different. The random relationship between the two oscillators means that they are randomly in different phases each time you trigger a note.

A perfect example of this can be heard by simply engaging the KB RESET button on a Sub 37, the HARD SYNC OSC 2 hidden parameter on the Sub Phatty, and the NOTE SYNC MIDI-accessable parameter on the Minitaur.

When that feature is selected, it always sounds like the attacks are much stronger, even though you've actually done nothing to either the Filter or Amplifier ADSR's Attack Time.

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:27 am
by Blackout
hi Demon,

i agree with you, i think theres a LOT of things that seem to make a sonic difference. there are so many small interactions and variations that just convince the ear that "this is real analog", some of the things i believe are still not completely understood yet.

i personally think that making the envelopes digitally controlled takes away one of the many "sloppy" variables that the ear listens for in analog. But i think if a "slop" factor was possibly to be added to the digital envelopes , just to add that little bit of randomness, it would certainly go a long way for the Sub 37.

i guess it would take enough people to ask for it, for Amos to consider implementing it? maybe 50% of people won't consciously hear a difference. So its not a big bonus for the amount of programming, i guess. But i bet at least 75% will UNCONSCIOUSLY feel it...

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:19 am
by MoogProg
This VARIANCE parm sounds interesting. If it turns out we can assign VARIANCE to any/all MOD DESTINATIONs then it should be possible to apply "slop" to the FILTER EG TIME and/or AMP EG TIME values. That should be close to what you desire (not exact, but a suggestion for the topic).

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:39 am
by _DemonDan_
MoogProg wrote:This VARIANCE parm sounds interesting. If it turns out we can assign VARIANCE to any/all MOD DESTINATIONs then it should be possible to apply "slop" to the FILTER EG TIME and/or AMP EG TIME values.

Hi MoogProg,

VARIANCE is not a Mod Source. It is a GLOBAL Menu parameter that affects only the oscillators.

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:18 pm
by MoogProg
Oh well. All good.

I had no issues using MOD2 with a very low LFO and a very small Pitch amount assigned just to OSC2 (with thanks to Dan for his tip on reducing the sensitivity of the AMT knob using CRTL-4) . Sure, I used a MOD for this, but I figure it's likely I'm already going after a vintage tone by attempting this maneuver, so "what's the problem?"

I see the Sub37 as the next step forward in Moog-ness, with its strength coming from the stability/synch-ability of its parameters. So, while VARIANCE is cool and desirable, it is certainly no disappointment to find it has limitations. Happy to hear it is coming down the pike.

Re: How to add oscillators instability (drift) to sub family

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:14 pm
by mmarsh100
Sometimes I wonder if these other differences are more about the slight random detuning of the oscillators that makes it *seem* like the attacks and filter blooms are different. The random relationship between the two oscillators means that they are randomly in different phases each time you trigger a note.


I agree with this. Another data point: add a third oscillator and this emphasizes the effect even more. I like the Variance parameter very much, but to my ears I can accomplish the same thing by slightly detuning the oscillators and maybe adding a bit of beat freq.