Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

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subb
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:39 am

Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by subb » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:52 pm

Hey,

I've been playing with the new shiny editor and I think I just don't get how I should be using it with Ableton. Basically, there's two problems :
- The plugin is provided as instrument or effect. However, there's no audio routing functionality in the plugin. What's the preferred way to get the Sub's audio back into Ableton?
- Since, on Windows, midi ports cannot be shared between applications, I have to disable the Sub's midi in and out from Ableton Live. This prevents me from recording a midi sequence from the Sub Phatty keyboard. If I use an external keyboard, I can record a midi sequence but the Sub's is not receiving it.

Am I missing something or those are known limitations of the plugin? How do you deal with them? What's the preferred workflow?

Thanks
Last edited by subb on Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aermusic
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:54 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by aermusic » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:00 pm

I'm having massive issues with my sub phatty and my pc, it won't recognise when i use the editor VST only standalone and even then it isn't consistent.

However in Ableton on mac i got it working perfectly, the best workflow i found was to put an "external instrument" on the track using the "sub phatty" midi out and routing audio back in from my soundcard, then putting the Editor audio effect VST straight after it. Essentially gives the same feeling as using a VSTi and responds to both clip information.
Moog Sub Phatty|MF104z Delay|Analog Rytm|Juno 106|Virus TI Snow|ISA Two|Culture Vulture|FMR RNC
Windows 7 Professional SP1|RME Fireface 800|Focusrite Saffire Pro 26i/o (ADAT)|Tascam US-2400|UAD Octo

aermusic
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:54 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by aermusic » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:06 pm

Preferred workflow for me in Ableton is to use an External Instrument, send midi out of Sub Phatty USB and bring in audio from soundcard then put the audio effect version of the Editor straight afterwards. It worked perfectly on mac and let me use midi effects and responded to clip information.

However on PC I'm having huge issues, the sub phatty won't be recognised by the editor while its being used as a VST in ableton. I am still running Ableton 8 so i wonder if this is part of the problem and the issue is with the x86 version of the editor on PC. Not seeing anyone else posting about having the same problem either...
Moog Sub Phatty|MF104z Delay|Analog Rytm|Juno 106|Virus TI Snow|ISA Two|Culture Vulture|FMR RNC
Windows 7 Professional SP1|RME Fireface 800|Focusrite Saffire Pro 26i/o (ADAT)|Tascam US-2400|UAD Octo

grailtone
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 1:11 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by grailtone » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:41 pm

I haven't used it with the editor yet, but, via USB, I can input and receive MIDI and route the audio from the Sub's output back through my interface. I use the "external instrument" plugin in ableton to designate it as the controller and designate the audio input to hear the audio.

Hope that helps, the editor should work the same way, just a GUI for the sub...

subb
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:39 am

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by subb » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:31 pm

grailtone wrote:I use the "external instrument" plugin in ableton to designate it as the controller and designate the audio input to hear the audio.


Yes, this is what I did before using the VST. However, you have to disable the midi in and out of the Sub in Ableton to be able to use the VST, because the VST need direct communication with the Sub, bypassing the DAW, which is honestly a pretty dirty workaround.

I think the only way I can see it work is using both the midi and the USB port, dedicating the USB port to the VST and using the midi port for recording clips in Ableton.

Amos
Posts: 2438
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by Amos » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:13 pm

critical note: Windows doesn't allow multiple apps to share the same MIDI device, like Mac does. So things that are easy on a Mac (like using the editor inside a DAW) are harder on Windows.

The best way I've found to do it is to use the Sub's USB for the Editor, and a separate MIDI interface for Live to talk to the Sub. I either use the MIDI jacks on my audio interface, or a dedicated USB-to-standard-MIDI interface like the e-mu MIDI 1x1 (or MIDIsport Uno). Then I select that MIDI device for Live to use, and select Moog Sub Phatty (the Sub's own USB) as the MIDI input & output in the Sub Phatty Editor Preferences. That seems to work pretty well, on Windows.

If you have no additional MIDI interface, you can experiment with the "Echo MIDI from Host" setting, in the editor prefs. If you use this, then you can pass MIDI notes from Live to the Editor to the hardware, without needing to select a MIDI device in Live. The main flaw in this plan is that MIDI clock is not echoed from Live to the hardware in this way, so you can't do LFO sync (yet). The reason is that VST plugins don't actually use MIDI clock (they use a different-format VST clock message) so there is nothing to echo. We would need to add an ability to output MIDI clock in response to VST clock. This is not impossible but it hasn't been added yet.

subb
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:39 am

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by subb » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:23 pm

Thanks Amos. This is what I thought. I'll try it when I get home.

neuromodulator
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by neuromodulator » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:32 am

I've got one slight problem with the editor in Live with a Mac. It doesn't pass knob movements from the Phatty on to the automation parameters in Live.

What I mean is this: I've got a track with the Sub Phatty Editor (SPE) on it (I've tried this with the instrument version and the non-instrument version). It syncs properly with the Sub Phatty Synth (SPS) - e.g. if I turn the cutoff knob on the SPS, the change is mirrored in the SPE.

Next, I unfold the Live effect and hit the configure button and add then move the control knob on filter cutoff on the SPE. Now cutoff is added to the automatable parameters. All is well.

And if I move the automation parameter in the Live window (I mean Live's native generic plug-in view, where you see automatable parameters as straight lines with an arrow indicating current value), I see the SPE update correctly, and vice versa. However, the problem is that when I move the cutoff knob on the SPS, the SPE knob updates, but this does not update the Live automation parameter. So I can't record a filter sweep from the SPS into a clip, although I can via the SPE.

I've checked it against my Virus TI, where a knob movement on the physical synth updates both the plug-in and the automation parameter.

1. Can someone confirm?
2. Do I have a preference in the SPE set incorrectly?
3. If the answers are "yes" and "no", respectively, I'd really love to see this fixed, Amos. (Yes, this has to do with the Push Parameter Lock update :) )

Anyway, nice work on the editor in general.

nofuturenocore
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:16 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by nofuturenocore » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:46 pm

1. Can someone confirm?

Yes it's normal.

2. Do I have a preference in the SPE set incorrectly?

No you don't.

3. If the answers are "yes" and "no", respectively, I'd really love to see this fixed, Amos.

Actually, having the SubP Editor doesn't change anything. If you record automation from the SubP, it will record it as CC message. But it would be great to have an option to make it recorded on the SubP Editor instead.

To see if it's working:

In your live clip, in the Envelope section you can choose which automation is showed on the clip. Select MIDI Ctrl.
This will show the parameters which have been recorded with your SubPhatty as CC.

If this doesn't work, there is a problem with the setup. It can come from three different section:

1) The track ( I don't think because it work with the SPE )
2) Your Midi Sync Preference ( I don't think because it work with the SPE )
3) Automation record not activated (...)

Or, something else...and honestly I don't see what...

Hope this help.

neuromodulator
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by neuromodulator » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:20 am

Actually, having the SubP Editor doesn't change anything. If you record automation from the SubP, it will record it as CC message. But it would be great to have an option to make it recorded on the SubP Editor instead.


Ah, I see what you're saying, but it's not quite true. The SubP Editor does change it because now LIve wants to record automation like it does for other plugins - and indeed I'd like it to as well so that I can record and edit it with Push.

nofuturenocore
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:16 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by nofuturenocore » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:03 pm

Hello

Yes it's true. Moving knob on the SP will affect midi CC only.
However if you use the Editor it will record on the Editor automation... [Plug-in Window] has nothing to do with the SubP. It a way to midi map parameters of the Editor which sends and receives informations from the SubP.

I use my SubP with Push and have no problems with this.

djintel
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:13 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by djintel » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:37 pm

Amos wrote:critical note: Windows doesn't allow multiple apps to share the same MIDI device, like Mac does. So things that are easy on a Mac (like using the editor inside a DAW) are harder on Windows.

The best way I've found to do it is to use the Sub's USB for the Editor, and a separate MIDI interface for Live to talk to the Sub. I either use the MIDI jacks on my audio interface, or a dedicated USB-to-standard-MIDI interface like the e-mu MIDI 1x1 (or MIDIsport Uno). Then I select that MIDI device for Live to use, and select Moog Sub Phatty (the Sub's own USB) as the MIDI input & output in the Sub Phatty Editor Preferences. That seems to work pretty well, on Windows.

If you have no additional MIDI interface, you can experiment with the "Echo MIDI from Host" setting, in the editor prefs. If you use this, then you can pass MIDI notes from Live to the Editor to the hardware, without needing to select a MIDI device in Live. The main flaw in this plan is that MIDI clock is not echoed from Live to the hardware in this way, so you can't do LFO sync (yet). The reason is that VST plugins don't actually use MIDI clock (they use a different-format VST clock message) so there is nothing to echo. We would need to add an ability to output MIDI clock in response to VST clock. This is not impossible but it hasn't been added yet.


Amos can you please explain this more in depth. I have a Midiman 2x2. I create an external instrument in Ableton, add the vst to the track. Send Midi to from external instrument to the Moog Sub Phatty. I can control everything on the interface and it responds to what i touch and I can visually see it, yet I can't record a clip into Ableton with midi. I have to route to an audio track and record in real time, which is not what I want to do since I can't quantize, etc. Can you please explain further on how to set this up?

neuromodulator
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by neuromodulator » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:36 pm

nofuturenocore wrote:Hello

Yes it's true. Moving knob on the SP will affect midi CC only.
However if you use the Editor it will record on the Editor automation... [Plug-in Window] has nothing to do with the SubP. It a way to midi map parameters of the Editor which sends and receives informations from the SubP.

I use my SubP with Push and have no problems with this.


That's cool that you're happy with how it works, and I think you're trying to be helpful, but I'm getting a bit frustrated that you're insisting this is a non-issue. It means that Live wants to handle automation of the Sub Phatty in two ways (plug-in parameter automation & CC recording) and that those ways don't agree with each other - each can have separate values. I can set the filter on the synth, and then go to edit it via Push, and it won't have received the updated value. If the Editor passed received value changes onto the automation lane, then I could handle all the automation via Push's built-in automation recording (e.g. using the new "parameter lock" features in 9.1, and being able to delete a parameter's automation from the hardware with two button moves). Repeating that it's fine as is is ignoring the value of that, and it's peculiar that you can watch the knob move in the editor window while the corresponding parameter in the automation view stays stationary.

I do get that you can create a workaround to get Live to treat CC messages as automation, like with Monolake's M4L patch, but honestly the Sub Phatty Editor should be serving that function be default. In fact, there's the argument as to why this is needed: the Monolake patch exists. Live handles plug-in automation a bit better than it handles CC recording, and the Sub Phatty editor should take care of that. There should never be a disagreement between what's in the editor window and what Live shows on the expanded native plug-in view.

Again, I do appreciate that you're trying to be helpful, but something isn't working right (the disagreement of the values) and it has consequences (not being able to use Push's automation features).

neuromodulator
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by neuromodulator » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:17 pm

I'll try and make a video tonight. Worth a thousand words and all that.

neuromodulator
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:25 pm

Re: Sub Phatty Ableton Live Workflow

Post by neuromodulator » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:58 pm

Sorry about the quality (I didn't think about proportions very carefully, and I could have used a script ha ha), but here you go.

https://vimeo.com/75359825

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