Sub Phatty, no oscillator 2 as modulation source?

[kingfriday]

I'm going to go ahead and put in my vote for osc2 as modulation source, as well. I've been trying to achieve some FM effects by using the LFO at high rate, but it's just not the same as the osc2 modulation on the LP.

A little off topic, but somewhat related (might put this in a separate thread), I have been attempting to use my Dark Energy's LFO to impart FM on the pitch CV input on the Sub and it's acting really strange. The modulation is normal until you get into higher modulation rates, and then really bizarre (not FM) things start to happen. The pitch goes totally wacky and seems to be all over the place. Each new key press seems to start from a different pitch. No idea what this could be, but it did weigh on my decision to drop my vote for Osc2 modulation on this thread.

[anselmi]

I'm going to go ahead and put in my vote for osc2 as modulation source, as well. I've been trying to achieve some FM effects by using the LFO at high rate, but it's just not the same as the osc2 modulation on the LP.

A little off topic, but somewhat related (might put this in a separate thread), I have been attempting to use my Dark Energy's LFO to impart FM on the pitch CV input on the Sub and it's acting really strange. The modulation is normal until you get into higher modulation rates, and then really bizarre (not FM) things start to happen. The pitch goes totally wacky and seems to be all over the place. Each new key press seems to start from a different pitch. No idea what this could be, but it did weigh on my decision to drop my vote for Osc2 modulation on this thread.

all bad news...I love the FM in the slim phatty and will miss it a lot if I finally move to the sub-p

I think I better wait to se what happens with the next upgrade...the lack of oscillator 2 as modulation source and arpeggiator would be 2 things that together are deal breaker for me...

[Box]

Being it's analogue you just can't make this modification without changing the hardware. Unless the routing is done through software anyway. Only someone like Amos can tell us for sure. Still even then, it would become one of the "under the hood" features. There are a lot of things you gain with the Sub over the Little. Just an example on the Sub you can now just target one oscillator or the other, and don't have to have it set to both like on the Little. So now you can have PWM on one, and not on the other. So you win some and you gain some. I personally find the limits of the Little more of a limit than those of the Sub. Not to mention you actually have noise on the Sub, which the Little is lacking terribly. Give it a few months and you can pick up a used Sub and Slim for the price of a new Little, and you can have it all.

[kingfriday]

Totally agree with Box. If you like the Sub, don't let that be the one thing that turns you off from it. The limitations are certainly there, but they're just part of it's personality like any other synth. You can still do cool FM with the LFO. For me, the knob per function interface was no brainer. The Sub is hands down a more enjoyable synth experience all around compared to the Little. New features are being added almost weekly by Amos, so I'm still hopeful that an arpeggiator will be added in a future firmware upgrade.

[anselmi]

Totally agree with Box. If you like the Sub, don't let that be the one thing that turns you off from it. The limitations are certainly there, but they're just part of it's personality like any other synth. You can still do cool FM with the LFO. For me, the knob per function interface was no brainer. The Sub is hands down a more enjoyable synth experience all around compared to the Little. New features are being added almost weekly by Amos, so I'm still hopeful that an arpeggiator will be added in a future firmware upgrade.

I understand what you say and partially agree, but for me an "enjoyable synth experience" is a balance between operation and sound, and I know I´ll miss this FM sounds from the slim phatty...I know it because I played with them today and it´s one of the things that puts the synth a step beyond the classic Moog sound from the past...a step in the right direction if you ask me

I´m not asking for something hard to achieve like sample playback oscillators, a FX unit or multimode filtering, just a nice feature that already is in a previous product with almost the same name...so I think it´s not so out of the reality to expect the sub-p got something that already is in all the voyagers and phattys

[twelsch42]

You can't completely erase the market for the slim-phatty by making the sub-phatty do EVERYTHING that the more expensive synth does.

[anselmi]

You can't completely erase the market for the slim-phatty by making the sub-phatty do EVERYTHING that the more expensive synth does.

I´m not looking for everything...the slim phatty still got a different sound, warmer overdrive, and a much bigger bank of memories
also, it´s a module, that lot of people preffer/need

[_DemonDan_]

I'm going to go ahead and put in my vote for osc2 as modulation source, as well. I've been trying to achieve some FM effects by using the LFO at high rate, but it's just not the same as the osc2 modulation on the LP.

Hi KingFriday, (from the "Neighborhood of Make-Believe"?),

This suggestion is obviously not a replacement for OSC2 modulation but...

You can get fantastic hi-speed modulation effects by setting your Filter to Repeat. Then make the Attack, Decay, and Release short enough that the Envelope becomes a very fast LFO. Experiment with different settings of the Filter Env's Sustain Level and EG Amount. You'll find that you can "tune" the repeating envelope to create drone modulation at desired pitches.

The Repeat feature on the Amp Envelope has a different flavor and the two can be combined to make some seriously complex modulations that are completely separate from the LFO. The Amp Env's Sustain Level can be used to set modulation depth and the A,D,R sets the shape and speed of the modulation.

[kingfriday]

Great suggestions, DemonDan. I completely forgot about the looping envelopes! You can definitely get some crazy awesome high speed modulation effects that way, and still have your LFO free for other modulation.

I think the biggest thing missing by not having Osc2 as a mod source is the fact that you can easily do pitch FM in precise octave/interval relationships. As cool as all these other FM techniques are, theres nothing like the fuzzy metallic grind of that kind of FM. But that's just one flavor of sound you can't do on the Sub where you get 5 or more new flavors in it's place!

[Box]

I understand what you say and partially agree, but for me an "enjoyable synth experience" is a balance between operation and sound, and I know I´ll miss this FM sounds from the slim phatty...I know it because I played with them today and it´s one of the things that puts the synth a step beyond the classic Moog sound from the past...a step in the right direction if you ask me

I´m not asking for something hard to achieve like sample playback oscillators, a FX unit or multimode filtering, just a nice feature that already is in a previous product with almost the same name...so I think it´s not so out of the reality to expect the sub-p got something that already is in all the voyagers and phattys

Think of it as a trade off. Yes you lose OSC 2 as a mod source, but you get noise! I'm not sure about you, but noise is generally much more useful when we're talking in a musical sense. That and you can assign waveform modulation independently of each other, which is so very useful in making solid PWM bass sounds. You get some FM type sounds on the Sub with the LFO, not to the same extent as the Little/Slim, but still.

Do I want the Sub to have OSC 2 as a mod source? Hell yes, but I'm not going to let that deter from all of the new things you get over the Little/Slim.

[monokit]

Anselmi, you have an Analog Four...you could use the A4 LFOs to modulate the Sub P Filter or Pitch via CV...not the same, i know, but you still have the LFO free on the Sub P than.

[anselmi]

Anselmi, you have an Analog Four...you could use the A4 LFOs to modulate the Sub P Filter or Pitch via CV...not the same, i know, but you still have the LFO free on the Sub P than.

I got plenty of gear, including a little 6U euro (and another one comming) so I´m not short of modulation sources at all!

but I want audio rate modulation of the filter with transposition to get FM timbres consistent at different notes...so, I can use any other oscillator to do this if I control its pitch with the same note I input into the sub-p (via its own keyboard or MIDI)...but this is a lot of patching vs jut grabb a knob and rise oscillator 2´s modulation output

of course I can do oscillator and/or filter FM with a zillion other stuff but the one on the slim phatty sounds really special and I got lovely tones with no effort using it, like the ones on this demo

http://soundcloud.com/anselmi/moog-patches-2

[marty]

I've been experimenting with FM on the Subby using both LFO keyboard tracking and the EG repeat function (thanks _DemonDan_!), the range of the modulating frequency doesn't extend to 20kHz of course but there's an awful lot of FM craziness to be enjoyed.

However I noticed that if I set LFO keyboard tracking to 200% and play too high up the keyboard the LFO modulation just disappears. It's as though driving the LFO rate beyond its 1kHz limit temporarily disables its mod setting.

Anybody else experienced this?

marty

[twelsch42]

Anybody else experienced this?

marty

Yes. I've found that the LFO at the tip-top of it's range (with LFO key-tracking at max) goes to zero.

T

[kingfriday]

Indeed, this is a "feature" (limitation) of the Sub Phatty. I'm exploring this it right now, as it seems to apply to the external CV modulation bus as well, or at least affect it in a strange way.(LFO range must be set high to accept audio rate modulation) This is making me think that Osc2 as a mod source might not possible at all, as using it would exceed the "resolution" offered by the LFO modulation bus itself. I hope I'm wrong.

Amos, can you speak to exactly how the LFO modulation is set up on the Sub and how that relates to the external CV modulation bus? What exactly is causing the LFO resolution to be "cut off"?