voyager os

wooperman · Post by **wooperman** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:45 pm

I was half joking, but since we are on the subject - I didnt mean - what sounds better, I agree, that's subjective. I meant measurement of speed, quality of wave forms, over all richness of sound (name of those metrics escape me), but of course it could be figured-out.
I think there are differences, and some really smart person out there would know exactly how to measure those differences: an OS patch vs. an identical midi Voyager patch.
It must be measurable. Not that anyone will do it, however I did post it over at the mythbuster idea forum.
search "phatness"

But yeah, what is "better" would only lead us to bitterly kill each other. see muslims, christians, hindus, etc.

jon_kull · Post by **jon_kull** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:30 pm

Something like that could probably be done to show differences but would have to be done by the same person running the Voyagers through the same equipment.

Anyone have an OS, a MIDI Voyager and some free time?

wooperman · Post by **wooperman** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:46 pm

I second.
How about test equipment. .. I'm gonna say an oscilloscope is needed. This test sounds good to me. Someone out there

The first annual phat-off.

Just Me · Post by **Just Me** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:01 pm

I've got a Signature with 3.3 operating system and 2 dual trace O-scopes.
Anyone want to come over with an OS, RME or Phatty and we can chain 'em all up!

(The weather is great in Phoenix right now!)

wooperman · Post by **wooperman** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:22 pm

hmmm, you guys don't have daylight savings time, this is going to be complicated.
If you were in sunny florida, I'd be there in a second brougham!! In fact, I'm already here.

LivePsy · Post by **LivePsy** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:32 pm

I'd be happy to know if there really is a difference in the analog signal from an OS vs. the Voyager but I my life is still complete without knowing. If the analog circuitry really is different, wouldn't Moog mention it? And don't forget the OS is still not true analog because the knobs are digital. You haven't got the analog signal actually passing through the resonance knob as it controls feedback in the VCF for example. You also don't have the hum. noise and radio reception from the proximity of your hand, but I digress...

Bring on the comparisons, I'm all for that. My point is that the finest tweak of a knob is a subjecive difference between great and OMG great. I tweaked 5 basses from the factory presets to make them sound perfect, but of course someone programmed them the way they are because that sounded perfect to them. I think the tiny tweaks are the real difference, not the hardware itself.

Pleae contradict me, I can't stand it when everyone agrees with me

B

wooperman · Post by **wooperman** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:33 pm

You're right, we need to find someone with a Model D before we start.

But seriously, I knew the OS keyboard was digital controlled, though I thought the knobs were analog.

Just like the Alesis Andromeda 100% analog, except for the all-digital controls...

I'm not being sarcastic here: What is keeping companies from making synths exactly as they were in the 70s?
Is it too labor intensive?
Parts too expensive ?
Or the fact that analog is actually inferior as it relates to stability?

LivePsy · Post by **LivePsy** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:35 pm

From looking at pics of naked OS and Voyager, they seem to have the same boards for the front panel - which implies digital knobs but with better resolution than the 128 steps that VA synths deal with. I believe that the front panel is fully digital and outputs midi for everything knob. If I am wrong, someone please let me know. IMO this is a vast improvement over knobs being part of the analog circuitry. The Voyager will last much longer than the model D because of this design. And again IMO, the OS or Voyager is superior to fully analog modules emulating moog modulars because of this hybrid design. And I'm speaking from an electrical engineering point of view.

Real analog struggles with temperature stability, matching components for reliable manufacture and noise elimination. The boutique analogs are out there for sure (Macbeth as a suggestion), but you're talking about custom production runs, high prices and the satisfaction that only you and few others in the world have one

I'd be very interested in any opinions on real world reliability, patch repeatability and how much back to factory calibration and tuning is required for a boutique analog.

Because the Voyager is closest to my macbook pro, I am using its keyboard for sequencing other gear and finding it is a great midi controller. Millisecond delays because its evil digital? Have you ever played a serious pipe organ? Then tell me about delays

B

MarkM · Post by **MarkM** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:46 pm

I'd be happy to know if there really is a difference in the analog signal from an OS vs. the Voyager but I my life is still complete without knowing. If the analog circuitry really is different, wouldn't Moog mention it?

According to KnobTweak:
"The Voyager Old School has the same analog circuitry as the other Voyagers (EB, Select, Performer, RME) minus the digital control, so it will basically sound the same as the other editions."

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/KnobTweak/

I think that no two Voyagers are alike. That would include an OS in comparison to a Performer as well as one OS compared to another OS. Some may have that undefinable difference that can only be discerned by playing. For example: perhaps the envelope circuitry has some component that is more to spec than another, or maybe one keyboard is more responsive than another. It's like that with guitars. Some Martin D-28s sound or play better than other Martin D-28s. There are so many components that make up a Voyager, it would only be likely that there would be differences.

acorkos · Post by **acorkos** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:58 pm

LivePsy wrote: And don't forget the OS is still not true analog because the knobs are digital. You haven't got the analog signal actually passing through the resonance knob as it controls feedback in the VCF for example.

the OS knobs are connected to real analog pots. they're not digital. the front panel PCBs are different http://www.moogmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6156

the only digital component in the old school is on the keyscan PCB under the keyboard

Just Me · Post by **Just Me** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:03 pm

I was granted the privledge of playing the largest pipe organ in Arizona. It was a most awesome and scary moment. I had to learn quickly to not listen to my playing as it was at some points nearly 250msec behind what I was doing on the manuals.
To get an idea for it. Plug your Moog into a Delay and set it for 125 to 250msec with one repeat and no dry in the mix. (Full effect) Then play your favorite song with the amp turned up. (Pipe organs are NOT quiet!)
Try and keep in tempo!!!

How the good organists actually play the pedals ahead of the Great and Swell ahead of that is beyond me!

LivePsy · Post by **LivePsy** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:27 pm

acorkos wrote:
LivePsy wrote: And don't forget the OS is still not true analog because the knobs are digital. You haven't got the analog signal actually passing through the resonance knob as it controls feedback in the VCF for example.
the OS knobs are connected to real analog pots. they're not digital. the front panel PCBs are different http://www.moogmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6156

the only digital component in the old school is on the keyscan PCB under the keyboard

That does look possibly true. I wouldn't might some official moog confirmation other than a picture that the PCB for the OS is different to the Voyager. If that is indeed the case, its a good reason to get an OS - whereas currently I don't think there is a real advantage for it.

B

EricK · Post by **EricK** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:01 pm

What is true is that like the Voyager, the OS keybed is controlled by a scanning PCB which is in fact digital, and some have wondered why MIDI wasn't included despite this fact.

Eric

acorkos · Post by **acorkos** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:28 pm

LivePsy wrote:That does look possibly true. I wouldn't might some official moog confirmation other than a picture that the PCB for the OS is different to the Voyager. If that is indeed the case, its a good reason to get an OS - whereas currently I don't think there is a real advantage for it.

B

it is completely true. here's a quote from Amos:

"There are no microprocessors or digital clocks anywhere near the control panel or sound engine of the OS. There is one digital element only in the Old School; it still uses a key-scan processor. However, this processor is self-contained underneath the keyboard, far away from any analog bits, and only an analog pitch-CV and gate ever goes from it to the analog board... all other control signals are fully analog, direct from the panel to the synth engine with no scanning or digital shenanigans. It should make for a purer sound. Of course you can control the Old School via pitch-CV and Gate from an analog modular-style keyboard, as well, using the CV jacks on the panel."

http://www.moogmusic.com/forum/viewtopi ... ht=keyscan

LivePsy · Post by **LivePsy** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:31 pm

That really great! Bring on the side by side comparisons.

I'm too much of a n00b to have seen that post, but I am very happy to be wrong. Now I can see why there is an OS.

Cheers,
B