OLD SCHOOL DISCONTINUED!?!

Tips and techniques for Minimoog Analog Synthesizers
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Voltor07
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Post by Voltor07 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:31 pm

EricK wrote:Yeah I forgot about that. But my point was really that if ford was still tooled, the coulr reissue the Model T.

Eric
Ford still makes that engine...but the bodies would be impossible to make without retooling.
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Post by pangmaster » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:25 pm

Wow, I am pretty shocked by this news, too! Does anyone know what the total number of units produced is or will be? I'm guessing 1000 or maybe even less? I'm sure glad I bought mine when I did. The main reason I went for the OS over the regular Voyagers is because I don't really need MIDI or patch storage in every synth I own. I like the fact that there's none of that extra stuff to get in the way, just like my Juno-6. I imagine there are others that feel this way, too, but maybe it wasn't selling that well?

Anyway, for me the OS was a refreshing change in a modern synth that allows me to work differently when I choose to. 8)

I'm sad to see it go!

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Post by EricK » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:39 pm

A guy emailed pictures of the innards of the OS and its really clean in there. It seems like it woudl lend itself to Modification heaven.....if it werent going to be a collectors item.
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Post by Voltor07 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:32 pm

Pangmaster, I believe they only did a run of 1000...like they will do the Taurus III's. EricK, EVERYTHING is modifiable. Even Model D's are being modified, and they are collector's items RIGHT NOW.

Heck, even my LP is modifiable, as the power supply is easily accessed via the PCB's copper hooks with the voltage and in some cases, the destination of that voltage, labeled. I wouldn't recommend doing that, of course, as it voids the warranty. :wink: The only reason I did it is because I'm on the brink of absolute insanity. :lol:
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Post by EricK » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:58 pm

Worse comes to worse youll be your own nurse.
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Post by Voltor07 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:23 pm

EricK wrote:Worse comes to worse youll be your own nurse.
I'm an Aquarius. That alone takes me to the brink of insanity. It's fun to jump back and forth over the fine line between genious and insanity. :lol:
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Post by coniglius » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:43 pm

They might have done a run of 1000, but how many do you really think are out there? My guess is that number is more like 300. Does anyone have a serial number higher than this? I got two of them from musician's friend in December and they were both in the 200's. If they're going to make another 200 again then my guess is there's going to be "NOS" ones on the market for quite awhile so I wouldn't worry about availability. And on that same note I don't think they're going to become "collectables" anytime soon (read: for the next 20 years or so) so I wouldn't worry about prices increasing.

As I mentioned in another post, really the only reason I think the OS was possible was because Moog Music was able to leverage off of the R&D and parts of the "normal" Voyager. From what I can tell they are the same synth with the digital boards simply taken out and probably another auxilliary board or two added to tie the ins and outs together. Then it was just a matter of a different die for the chassis and voila! If there had been no digital Voyager predecessor, then there either would never have been an OS or there would have been a very limited run and they would have cost near twice as much due to the limited appeal (though the build quality would have also been much higher). As much as I love my OS, the digital keyboard sucks. Not that it's not good for what it is, it's about as nice a digital front end to an analogue synth you could want. Again, here they were just cribbing off of the digitally controlled Voyagers. As simple and cheap as an analog buss-style CV keyboard would have been to implement, it would have required more R&D, thus increasing the price of the OS (though I'd have gladly paid more for it). Sure, we'd sacrifice our last note priority, afterpressure, velocity, etc, but as far as I know, those features are not consistent with the 60's or 70's monosynth paradigm , hence don't appeal so much to the purist. There's a ton of nice 44 key midi controllers out there that would work fine with MIDI-CV, which my guess is going on at some level inside of the OS anyways, if you want these features. I mean, in some ways it's almost lame that the OS doesn't have a MIDI out option for the keyboard because it's already digital anways.

Most of this is somewhat informed speculation/deduction so if anyone has evidence to the contrary (or supporting) I'd like to hear it.

I realised early on they wouldn't do a proper treatment of the Taurus and decided not to preorder one (this was when they first announced it and before I found the thread on the forum). There's no way for the demographic and price they were suggesting that they were going to create a "real" Taurus because of the limited appeal of a non-midi, non-bells and whistles instrument and the R&D involved in creating one. I guess I was right and I'm really glad I didn't go ahead and pre-order. Though it may pave the way for a Taurus OS in the future :)

It's obvious by their choice of language ("Old School", "Phatty") who Moog's target is and it's not those of us who could be described by some as "Old School", but would not use that term ourselves, let alone use the term "phat" to describe anything. At 33, I don't think I'm a good representative of a typical synth user of my age. I know who Keith Emerson, Peter Bardens, Rick Wakeman, Kerry Minnear, Rod Argent, Vincent Crane, <name drop ad nauseum>... are, and it's because I've always been fans of their music. Not because Jordan Rudess or the guy from <insert neo cheese "prog" band from "way back in '99" name here> mentioned them in an interview. The Moog Music brand doesn't speak or appeal to me, I don't equate them with "Moog". But the OS was a damn good move on Moog Music's part because that did speak to and appeal to me. It's a flawed masterpiece. I (we?) can only hope that they'll continue to explore this demographic. Maybe create a Moog Music Old School, errr... Moog Music Vintage line or division just for us :)
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Post by djthomaswhite » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:00 pm

My Whitewashed Old School is #0219

I beg to differ about the key board quality. I could care less if it's digital since the pressure modulation and routing is sooooo fricking awesome!!! I now know my the LP is called "little" and playing the keys on the LP keyboard feels very "thin" compared to the high quality keybed in the OS. Loving my synth! Out of town now, but hope to make an all Voyager OS Piece soon,
Thomas

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Post by EricK » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:00 pm

As soon as they are discontunied and as soon as the dealers run out you jsut watch what happens on EBAY.

The Multimoog has some aftertouch and I don't think that has anything to do with digital anyway. I think the Prodigy does as well so no offence to a purist with that feature. My keyboard crapped out on my Select Voyager and the afterpressure worked fine. I installed the digital board myself and its back to normal. As far as I know that board scans the keyboard, which very well may be a primitive Midi to CV converter. I think this stuff is privy to people like Amos and the engineers there as there are no schems of the Voyager anywhere except in their labs.


I can understand your frustration. Why don't you equate Moog Music with Moog? I mean they used to be Big Briar which was Bob Moog's baby. You can't get any more Moog than that.

Well I tell you what, with all of the clone companies out there, I think if anyone could do a Moog filter any justice, its Moog. They have the schems and the know-how and the rights to reissue essentially any previous Moog product. And more importantly, all they woudl have to do is contact the Bob Moog Foundation and get his original notebooks on the Taurus containing info and theory probably not in the schematics. In this respect I differ with you on your opinion of the quality of the Taurus. With the endless and ugly Model D vs Voyager debates that are everywhere, there will be a Taurus III vs Taurus I debate just as ugly, but I think that the end product will be something that will be increadibly huge sounding, rivaling the original in every way, except for the vintage flavor that a Taurus I might have. This will also do everyone the favor of driving down the market prices for the Taurus I (hopefully).

I necessarily didn't like the language used like Little Phatty or Old School myself, but I don't care if they called it a Minimoog Turd Basket, it is still one of the greatest sounding synths on the market today. And from what I understand Bob had a tounge in cheek sence of humor, hence the MoogerFoogers.

You must be a hardcore synth purist. :)

Respectfully,
Eric
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Post by RichardK » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:18 pm

That does raise an interesting point though.

How big IS the market for these synths, really? I mean, I thought the Voyager was a really exclusive instrument, and wasn't sure how many would sell, how long it would be out - and I certainly didn't expect to own one.

When I did get one it was out of a pile of them in a bankrupt music store, with a recent OS (all banks). The serial number, 321, I assume applies to the particular select combination I have.

The Old School is not that expensive. Things like the Macbeth cost about the same and were not "authentic", lacked keyboards and wooden components... to me the old school looks like very good value for an authentic analogue monosynth.

I really would be surprised if US-wide. let alone world-wide, they'd only sold a few hundred.
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Post by EricK » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:27 pm

I actually think that the Moog Family, and by that I mean everyone that owns a Moog is really a small one. I mean they are worldwide of corse, but I don't think Moog is a household name like some other brands are.

I like to think we Moogers are in the know.

I also don't think that Moog is a "boutique" instrument company either. I think a boutique company puts a product out there that is unique and noone else wants to make.

When you are an industry leader like Moog, everyone wants to copy what you do. Thats the way it has been in the syntheszier business, as far as I understand it.
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Post by Voltor07 » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:30 am

Well stated, EricK! My thoughts exactly! :mrgreen:
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Post by EricK » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:38 am

I only say that because not everyone is both willing and able to spend 300 dollars on a phaser, 700 dollars on a delay, or 3000 dollars on a minimoog when they can get a 200 dollar pedal board with all the same effects and download a pirate Minimoog plugin (or any software synth plugin for that matter).

I also think that Moog travels by word of mouth, much like some of the best stuff does. But when you have computer technology advancing the way it has in the last 15 years, coupled with reasonably good and cheap effects, coupled with the declining amount of Music Education in the schools, computers as instruments might be more appealing than traditional means.

And plus, Im in Arkansas and im virtually the only one that Ive met that knows anything about Moog, aside from the aging keyboard players and people who remember when the originals came out. THe Little Phatty may be one of the best things Moog has done in order to appeal to a wider audience.

And more power to them.

Im going to pull an Obama style quote

Pretty soon, we will be the people we envy on youtube. lol

We will be the aging keyboardists with a Modular synth that fills up two rooms. Of corse Im speaking for the younger people here, I'll be 29 in May. Im just blessed enough to have been passed down some good gear.

Moog Lives!

Eric
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Post by Matt Friedman » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:57 am

EricK wrote:And plus, Im in Arkansas and im virtually the only one that Ive met that knows anything about Moog, aside from the aging keyboard players and people who remember when the originals came out. THe Little Phatty may be one of the best things Moog has done in order to appeal to a wider audience.
A buddy of mine, who I play in a blues-roots band with [yeah... I do a bit of everything] walked into my home studio the other day and the first thing he said was "ooh... a Moog." Maybe it's New York, but I think the Moog name has quite a bit of cachet.

No one has ever reacted to my gear with "oooh... a Roland" or "ooh... a Korg." The only things that people notice are the Moog and the Vox organ.
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Post by coniglius » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:24 am

Thanks for the reply EricK. Sorry I'm relatively new to forums so I don't know how to properly paste your previous comments so I can "respond" to them. Hopefully the context will make it clear.

I'll have to disagree with any increase in desirability or price on ebay. I just don't see it happening because the demand for them just isn't that high. I really think there's going to be a surplus of unsold new stock. Also there's a lot of competitors out there for "new" analogue synths nowadays and if someone's considering paying upwards of $2k for a synth on the "used" market, especially something of the nature of the OS, then they're going to be considering real vintagegear as well which is relatively close in price. "Do I want to buy a used OS for $2,500 or a vintage Model D for $3,000?". I mean it all depends on who you are of course. But I think the type of people looking to buy the OS are the same type of people who would seriously consider vintage alternatives.

Heh, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see that happen, but I've seen it (and been burned by it) time and time again with these limited "vintage re-issue" items fetching a bare minimum premium when they're discontinued. When they do fetch a premium, it's usually because they were hand built and/or used very hard to get NOS parts that were the same used in the originals and are generally no longer available. Or they develop some sort of cult following like the TB-303 or xOxbOx. In a nutshell, I don't think there's anything instrinsically special or valuable about the OS that will drive its price appreciably above the normal price of a used piece of modern gear in its class.

"Multimoog"? "Prodigy" Heh, you're talking "modern" synths! :P I guess I should have qualified with late 60's to early 70's". I don't want to get into this argument, but the "paradigm" I referred to was meant to indicate synths that were played by "the greats" (whether on Maxwell's Silver Hammer or Karn Evil 9) in their heyday; which I would say was roughly '65-'75. Thus excluding the Multimoog and Prodigy.

I'd really like to see the specs for the Voyager keyboard. The scantime in particular. Or better yet, get a copy of the complete maintenance manual! The digital nature is what really turned me off of the dotcom controller keyboard as well. If you play a digital board with latency vs one with a proper analog bus bar, the difference is night and day. I could use every cliche in the book to describe them ;) Play on your OS for awhile, then switch over to an Odyssey or even a Hammond, it almost feels like an acoustic instrument by comparison. Apart from just "knowing" the tech specs of the Voyager keyboard, I would consider doing a MIDI out on my OS because I do have applications for it.

Well I don't equate "Moog Music" with "Moog" anymore than I equate going to see a Who show with "having seen the Who in concert" or Keith Emerson's new album with "Keith Emerson". The point being that all were groundbreakers in their day. It isn't their day anymore, and hasn't been for awhile. Now they're legends ("living legends" in some cases) and best they can do is "play" the part of themselves in their heyday. In Moog Music's case, they're a modern corporation. A brand. They're not Bob Moog exploring a new medium for expressing musical ideas. They're not the rendering of those explorations. That rendering was the Modular, Model D, etc. To really generalize that, it was the idea of using and controlling electronic oscillators, filters, etc. as an analogue to the control of physical vibrations on acoustic vibrations. Moog Music is a company that seeks to make money from the re-treading or re-implementation of those renderings with an affectation of Bob Moog's genius. I'm not judging one way or the other as to whether this is "good" or "bad". I'm saying it's for these reasons I do not equate Moog Music with Moog, or should I say, with the auspices under which those vintage synths were created. Even the Little Phatty which is said to have been an actual Bob Moog design is really nothing but his original idea repacked with modern features. It was a design idea, not one that further developed the creative idea of what a synthesizer should be.

As far as any of the "clone companies" out there doing the Moog filter justice... I'd somewhat agree with you when it comes to "companies". But that's not to say there aren't people out there making small batches of synths that sound more like a Moog than what Moog Music is putting out. This isn't uncommon at all. Dunlop (as an extreme example) has put out numerous "re-issues" of just about every one of their classic pedals and in all cases, a better sounding and more faithful replica can be found from a boutique maker. These then become classics in themselves. Same thing goes for guitar amps for sure. In this day and age, no large company can compete in quality or authenticity with small boutique operation hand-designing and hand-building clones with their only goal being to closely and faithfully replicate that sound they fell in love with. Of course, you'll pay a price for it though!

In fact I considered a few of them (at over double the price of the OS) before I decided to purchase the OS. In almost all cases, they captured the "Moog sound" better than the OS. In all cases but one, I had to go by soundclips. But I'm fairly good at being able to parse out and interpolate what the "live" instrument would sound like. I'm not talking about from stock soundclips. I spent a lot of time in trying to contact real people who've recorded music and their own soundclips that I could use for the comparison. The Macbeth M5 was the one situation where I was able to do a physical side by side comparison and it blew the OS out of the water hands down. That's on an "oscillator for oscillator" comparison even apart from the fact that the M5 does tons the OS can't. But really its sound captures "vintage Moog" like the OS can't. Price was definitely a factor in my decision. It wasn't so much that the M5 was "too much" as it was I was not only able to get the OS for an unheard of price, but it came with the free CP-251 as well! Don't get me wrong here, the OS is an awesome piece of gear and I wouldn't have bought it at any price if I didn't think so. Heh, of course I still need to get the M5, but that'll have to wait...

Moog Music is making modern instruments. Yes they have access to all of Bob Moog's creative assets but that doesn't mean they're obliged or inclined to use them when developing products for Moog Music as "Moog". If the boards and electronics in the OS were similar the original Model D or "clones", then rest assured Moog Music would have used that as a selling point and reflected that in the OS's name. I'm sure they're modern equivalents optimised for production and cost weighted against how "authentic" they sound and how much of it they could claim was, or wanted to be, an intentional difference between the old and new. This is no "fault"' or "deception" of Moog Music, it's just how big companies work. They are making a different instrument with different appeal than the instruments I'd consider made by "Moog". My strong disagreement is that Moog Music is somehow carrying the torch of Bob Moog's innovations with this idea of "Oh, you want a Moog, well they're still making them!". Just like after watching The Who do Won't Get Fooled Again on the Kids Are Alright and I say "Man I wish I could have seen those guys play" and someone says "But you can, they're on tour right now!".

Alright QED or whatever, I need to stop talking now :)
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