Firth Of Fifth Genesis

[pianovink]

Hi everybody,

has anybody a patch that is similar to the synth solo of Firth Of Fifth by GENESIS Selling England by the pound (Tony Banks on ARP Odyssey, I presume)?

Or can you give some hints to create that sound?

Yours
Peter

[ummagumma]

Can't help with the patch, but I believe it was an Arp Pro Soloist, on the recording?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARP_Pro_Soloist

[pianovink]

Hi ummagumma,

I think you're right!

In later performances the solo was played on many other synths with v e r y different sounds, but I'm looking for the special patch played on SELLING ENGLAND..

I tried different waves and it seems that this particular patch is based on sawtooth for OSC 1 and OSC 2 an octave down... - but I failed in coming to the original patch as near as I want...

Thanks a lot for your mail!

Yours

Peter

[ummagumma]

I just happened to listen to this song last night, and I hear some high freq resonance in there too.

Might be an overdub, or just another parameter on the pro soloist? I am not familiar with it, but I read it was a preset instrument? If so it should be possible to figure out what preset he used/modified.

[AlakaLazlo]

Working from my aging memory, try using a variable PW pulse instead of a saw. The ARP Pro-soloist had a rather thin woody sound as I recall. I'm guessing around 25% duty cycle, but your ear will tell you when you are close. Stack 2 an octave apart. The ARP filters were a bit thin also, so you may need to both high and lowpass (aka bandpass) the result to get closer.

[pianovink]

Hi both of you,
thanks for your replies.

I must admit that I'm rather a keyboarder than a tech.

Alakalzlo, due to my minor capabilities mentioned above: I don't understand your reply.....

But nevertheless thank you!!!

Yours Peter

[ummagumma]

I just watched a great interview with Tony Banks, he's talking to Alan R Pearlman's daughter about ARP and other synths: some good info about the pro soloist. And mellotron, Quadra, etc

https://youtube.com/watch?v=WUYJTr6YDWs

[pianovink]

Yes, great!

THX a lot!
Peter

[ummagumma]

Welcome!

Funny, he talks about the pro soloist, and then how he switched to using samples & other synths. And comments that no one could tell the difference....but obviously ppl can

[pianovink]

Hi,
the best thing is that it seems to be the personal Tony Banks chat!

Maybe I ask him directly, whether h e can help me....

Yours

Peter

[Doddos]

First of all - the album Selling England by the pound by Genesis is a true masterpiece....don't know how many times i've listened to it.
The Tony Banks solo on the ARP pro soloist, in my ears, is probably dubbed in the studio since this instrument was a single osc story with saw and pulse waveforms. However, it could be read on wiki that the saw was derived by the sum of 5 pulsewaves....

However- I've tried to tweak that sound on my voyager OS and think you come very close by using a single saw oscillator with the filter at 500 with a hint of resonance (0.5 or so), slow attack (10), decay at 1 sec, sustain 8 and release at both env around the mid. The amount to filter should be around 2.

If you want that over dubbed tone (I suppose), just put osc 2 at the 4' tab at the same volume, perhaps slightly detuned.

Try it out, but be aware of that no voyager sounds exactly the same with regard to pot settings, you will have to tweak a bit. My OS is slew rate modded by the way, so it probably sounds a tiny bit different with some more overtones in the oscillator.

[pianovink]

Hi Doddos,

thanks a lot for giving me advice.

I think the 2nd OSC is quite useful, perhaps not as loud as 1st one.

Although I'm not a NORD-owner, I read about this sound in a forum. They also start with saw wave.

As my MINI resides in the rehearsal room, I'll check your patch this week and will report you.

Again thx!!!

Yours

Peter

p.s. The Piano-intro OF Firth (I.E the Synth-Solo) belongs to my 10 favourite compositions in Prog-Rock. I've never heard such a skilful modulation from Bflat to B and back. But I'm sure I will find a similar modulation by having a closer look to Brahms or one of his colleagues. Nevertheless, Tony did a great job. I studied music from 1975 to 1982 and when SELLING ENGLAND appeared, we copied FIRTH to a tape machine and spent 2 nights on playing it back half speed, till we got the correct notation - in those days with pencil and paper.

[Doddos]

Thanx Peter, hope you'll find the sound and please let me know if my recipe was helpful or not

Agree...the piano intro you mention is amazing and one of the best pieces of piano compositions within the genre I know too, I have thought of to try to learn it but never took the time. Interesting to read about your efforts with low speed tape

Would be nice to know your other 9 progrock compositions (or albums) of the top 10.... I listen a lot to that kind of music

[pianovink]

Sure:

Here are another 9 ones - no special order:

1. Karn Evil Number 9 1st impression Part II ELP
2. Air (great bluesy piano Imprvisation over Bach's Original theme) Ekseption
3. Roundabout YES
4. Hocus Pocus /Sylvia Focus
5. Prelude / Angry Young Man B. Joel
6. Hoedown ELP
7. In Held Twas In I (Final section) Procol Harum
8. Grand Hotel Procol Harum
9. Thick As A Brick (Complete Album) Jethro Tull


All titles are available on YouTube.....

Yours

Peter

p.s. I will report on Friday about FoF - Sound

[dombedos]

Hi all,

I have an ARP Pro DGX, which I used to use for performing the FoF solo. The preset voice I used is the Trumpet, that Tony Banks appears to have used in live situations, at least in the early period.

The synth solo of the original studio recording is more complex, impossible to be replicated in live performances, at least if one wants to use the ARP Pro Soloist/DGX.
I was curious to understand how the original studio recording works, then I tried to analyze it using a high resolution (96k/24 bit) recording taken from the vinyl, that I had found on the internet.

I found that, as already mentioned by Doddos, the synth solo is a complex combination of two separate recordings, arranged as follows.
The right channel sounds the actual pitch, while the left channel sounds one octave higher (this can be heard easily if you listen to each channel as a mono separate track). The two voices are addressed to the respective channels separately, I mean, there is no partial mix of each voice with the other channel. The part on the right channel is delayed around 40 mSec.
The voice that is used, as above mentioned, is the Trumpet, with Brilliance around maximum. The left channel is the same Trumpet voice, played here with the Octave Transpose - Up inserted. Maybe some filtering or resonance effect is added to the final sound.

The overall effect is that notes start with a sort of short attack transient, lacking of the fundamental, on the left; then rapidly move to the right with the full sound, while on the left only overtones continue, fading earlier then right. The listener gets a feeling of a sort of echo, directed left to right, that is both spacial and harmonic.

I never tried to reproduce the sounds of the ARP Pro on different synths. As you stirred my curiosity on the subject again, I will try with my modular as I have time.

All the best
Leonardo