Voyager RME Discontinued

Tips and techniques for Minimoog Analog Synthesizers
nuno
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by nuno » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:35 pm

Maybe Moog is developing a poly, maybe not (wishful thinking?)

The RME was most likely discontinued because it sells poorly, and Moog can't afford to waste resources. Something new is almost certainly in the works.

Dave Smiths legacy is polysynths. Moog's is monosynths. They're both very good at what they do.

The P6 is priced above 3000 € in Europe, just for reference (2 VCOs and 2 filters per voice). Expect a Moog poly to be priced at least a bit above the Voyager (roughly @ 3900 €, Performer Stage Ed), even if using only 2 oscillators per voice and one filter.

Keep in mind also that Moog's least expensive monosynth with keys (SubPhatty-25 keys) is still more expensive than DSI's Mopho keyboard SE (44 keys).

I'm using Thomann € prices as a guide, some sellers may vary their offers.
DonutDude wrote:Here's what I hope is going on. The RME was discontinued because Moog Music is developing a 4 or 6-voice Voyager rack mount synth.

If Dave Smith can release the Prophet 6 (VCOs and a keyboard) for under 3K, surely Moog can develop a rack unit for a similar price, or less. They are both small companies with great engineering talents. Am I missing something? Your comments?

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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by EMwhite » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:53 pm

MRNUTTY wrote:@MC, I still have the Matrix-6 + a 6R. Like you say, absense of knobs limits it tremendously. Even two of them don't seem to warm the sound up. To heavy to ship anywhere... so I still have them.
I always wanted a Matrix 12 but could never find one close enough to me that I could afford that wasn't a basket case.

So I bought a Matrix-6 and a 6R instead. Then I added a Matrix 1000 and used the poly function to create an 18 voice; it was amazing but I still only have 10 digits on my two appendages. Ultimately, I sold the all; luckily I had a good case for the Matrix 6 and thankfully it arrived safely to the new owner.

Still want and likely will never have an OBX; still want that Matrix-12 or an expander. Same same.

I've got a 5 voice SEM cooking which I cobbled together into a primitive Poly; it has a sequencer and I have a 4 stage ADSR on the Filter envelope but it's not tweak able in the traditional poly sense.

I'll probably add a 6th, 7th, and 8th voice because I love the SEM so much; I'm afraid of what Moog might do in a Poly. It' either going to be a game changer or be a tremendous draw on the company. Perhaps the Modular sales will give enough of a buffer to get them over the hump of development and early shipping. If I were the Product Manager (or if MC were the product mgr. or if YOU were the product mgr.) I would probably be able to develop a list of requirements that I felt would be precisely what THE MARKET wants and will shell out $$ for. But in the end, it's my, MC, or YOUR view of what we all like, what is out there already etc etc.

Until then, I will get along alright. I've got about 10x more gear than talent... many of us do but it's fun talking about this stuff.
'76 Minimoog, Taurus 3, Oberheim FVS + Son of 2-voice; Sequential ProOne; Juno 106; Moog Model 15; Kurzweil 250; Hammond M3; and a handful of Fender Basses Flickr!

EricK
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by EricK » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:23 pm

I think the product vacuum will be filled with some kind of module offering. We haven't seen a new 500 series (maybe this is the next to get the axe, especially the delay if it hasn't already been dc). They DO need to make room for the keyboard controller production line too.

The Voyager is about as refined as it can get though. It is pretty rock solid for having been out for so long. I can see maybe minimal upgrades such as expanded memory or something along those lines.

Over the years, every time a polysynth thread opens up, many people here state with absoluteness that Moog will never develop a polysynth. If their modular line is evidence of anything at all, it is that Moog is capable of doing anything they want to do at whatever price point they want, IF they have the inclination.

Here's hoping that it is an inductor based 907a.
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nuno
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by nuno » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:39 pm

Well, you may be right, but the modular line you brought as an example is not really a fitting landmark for future product development. It's beyond being a very niche product, with a mostly symbolic meaning, as it's limited edition and priced as a collector's item, and a complete clone of something that, were it to appear as a new product would most likely be redesigned. To put mildly, the exhorbitantly-priced regurgitated modular line is, so far, more like an ornament than a serious part of the Moog product line.

No statement was made absolutely in this thread that Moog would never make a poly. Unlike you though, I don't believe that Moog will do whatever it wants. The synth and fx markets do not exist in a vacuum. Even the setting of prices for their gear is quite obviously the result of careful consideration, otherwise they would have sunk already.

EricK wrote: Over the years, every time a polysynth thread opens up, many people here state with absoluteness that Moog will never develop a polysynth. If their modular line is evidence of anything at all, it is that Moog is capable of doing anything they want to do at whatever price point they want, IF they have the inclination.

Here's hoping that it is an inductor based 907a.
Edit: grammar
Last edited by nuno on Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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DonutDude
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by DonutDude » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:07 pm

>> The synth and fx markets do not exist in a vacuum. Even the setting of prices for their gear is quite obviously the result of careful consideration, otherwise they would have sunk already. <<

Maybe a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway: Do you think Moog's pricing structure is based largely on in-house productivity? In other words, with a limited number of employees the consumer demand of an inexpensive Moog poly synth would overload their ability to manufacture the number of units requested. Demand would exceed supply so they could, and perhaps would have to, charge more.

As to Moog sticking to a monophonic only stable of synths - their history didn't, so why would their future?

nuno
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by nuno » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:28 pm

DonutDude wrote:>> The synth and fx markets do not exist in a vacuum. Even the setting of prices for their gear is quite obviously the result of careful consideration, otherwise they would have sunk already. <<

Maybe a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway: Do you think Moog's pricing structure is based largely on in-house productivity? In other words, with a limited number of employees the consumer demand of an inexpensive Moog poly synth would overload their ability to manufacture the number of units requested. Demand would exceed supply so they could, and perhaps would have to, charge more.

As to Moog sticking to a monophonic only stable of synths - their history didn't, so why would their future?
I really don't know the answers to those questions. Their history with polys may have no bearing on the future. As a corporate entity, Moog is now a very different creature. We are all speculating here.

As to prices, I'm convinced they are determined differently for each product line, according to how much of the labor involved originates in-house, and, among other things, criteria like brand projection (Theremini? Animoog? Minifoogers?), perceived demand, etc... Maybe others know a little bit more about that and would like to contribute.

But, as an example of pricing policies, the Schmidt Analog Poly is priced at $20k, it doesn't get more boutique than that. It has a ton of bells and whistles, 4 VCOs, point-to-point wiring, complex filter arrangements, and modulation possibilities to match that. You won't find it at home studios, that's for sure. It has no mass-market appeal and no capacity to provide for a mass-market.

The DSI P6 is priced at $3k and it bears a much simpler architecture and is mass produced using SMT components, 2 VCOs, 2 filters and sparse modulation options when compared to their other synths. It was designed for mass-market, and is likely to be a winner.

Where would that leave Moog's so-far imaginary polysynth :?:

Good question :lol:

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Bald Eagle
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by Bald Eagle » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:07 pm

I started to consider possibilities for a pure analog poly. And after much consideration I am not convinced of the benefits. Of course there is the charm but beyond that, ehh.

Sure, DSI has done it but so what? The Prophet 6 has so many limitations that it makes it of very little interest to me.

The P12 on the other hand is a nice hybrid approach. Far from perfect but a step in the right direction.

The Sub 37 has many digital components and Moog could build on that to create an awesome poly hybrid.

nuno
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by nuno » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:15 pm

Bald Eagle wrote:
The Sub 37 has many digital components and Moog could build on that to create an awesome poly hybrid.
I don't see Moog releasing a hardware synth with digital parts on the audio path like DSI does. I might be wrong. Hardware poly-synth with Animoog oscillators and 2 Voyager analogue filters per voice? Good enough for me :mrgreen:

Apart from the theremini, digital bits in Moog synths are control and modulation sources only, as in the DSI P6.

Also DSI made a simplified, limited modulation VCO synth, only to avoid collision with their other products. It might not be so in the future.

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Bald Eagle
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by Bald Eagle » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:38 pm

nuno wrote:
Bald Eagle wrote:
The Sub 37 has many digital components and Moog could build on that to create an awesome poly hybrid.
I don't see Moog releasing a hardware synth with digital parts on the audio path like DSI does. I might be wrong. Hardware poly-synth with Animoog oscillators and 2 Voyager analogue filters per voice? Good enough for me :mrgreen:
Just route the iPad with Animoog into the analog filter of your choice. When you think beyond traditional modular and just start routing everything to everywhere ... There are no limits.

nuno
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by nuno » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:41 pm

Bald Eagle wrote:
nuno wrote:
Bald Eagle wrote:
The Sub 37 has many digital components and Moog could build on that to create an awesome poly hybrid.
I don't see Moog releasing a hardware synth with digital parts on the audio path like DSI does. I might be wrong. Hardware poly-synth with Animoog oscillators and 2 Voyager analogue filters per voice? Good enough for me :mrgreen:
Just route the iPad with Animoog into the analog filter of your choice. When you think beyond traditional modular and just start routing everything to everywhere ... There are no limits.
Yes I know, but we can dream :mrgreen:
Your suggestion would be what is called paraphonic (DSI PRO2), not fully polyphonic, like the P12, for example.

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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by EricK » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:38 am

nuno wrote:Well, you may be right, but the modular line you brought as an example is not really a fitting landmark for future product development. It's beyond being a very niche product, with a mostly symbolic meaning, as it's limited edition and priced as a collector's item, and a complete clone of something that, were it to appear as a new product would most likely be redesigned. To put mildly, the exhorbitantly-priced regurgitated modular line is, so far, more like an ornament than a serious part of the Moog product line.

No statement was made absolutely in this thread that Moog would never make a poly. Unlike you though, I don't believe that Moog will do whatever it wants. The synth and fx markets do not exist in a vacuum. Even the setting of prices for their gear is quite obviously the result of careful consideration, otherwise they would have sunk already.
Hi, I don't believe we have corresponded before.

Correct, no one in this thread has written they would never make a poly, but there are countless threads where this was brought up by many members with numerous justifications for their positions.


If you listen to the various interviews that Gene Stopp gave, and considering their close relationship with STG Soundlabs, it is clear they are well aware of the market opportunities for modulars beyond the 10K entry fee. They would be foolish not to ride the pony as far as they could. Euro is a cash cow.
Their modular line is priced cheaper than those same systems when they were being manufactured by Modusonics ($13,830 for a 15 in 2007) and they are cutting in on the vintage market. Forgive me for being incredulous, but it doesn't make sense to me for them to limit their modular offerings to those with at least 10k to blow. Their product release history is consistent with this pattern, at least if you take into consideration their Vo guitars (6K on initial release down to 3k for the models not containing the AAAAA wood tops) and their Moogerfoogers-minifoogers. They opened with a 150K Emerson system then offered 10K system 15s. They very well may not want to go the custom order route, but who knows? Gene said that there "is no limit" to the amount they can produce. I'm trying to be optimistic because I want the 907a.

But when I wrote that they have demonstrated that they can and will do whatever they want at any price point, consider the following:
They released a Voyager XL at about 1400 dollars higher than the Voyager with the CP and VX boxes and all you get extra is a few more octaves, a ribbon, and an LFO.
They released a 6k guitar. Then they released a Lap Steel guitar. Then offered custom guitar modifications.
Then they made a $14,000 gold plated Voyager. <--- This more than anything, I contend, makes my point.
I already mentioned the $150,000 EMMS modular system.

I've been following Moog Music Asheville for awhile and some of these product offerings have blown my mind.They developed these products over the last five or so years, when we had some really rough economic times, and they managed to stay afloat. They know exactly what they can do or you are surely right to argue they would have gone under. I stand by my contention that they can and will do whatever they want at any price point they want.

So a polysynth, if they had the inclination to make one that is a discrete monster priced like the Schmidt yet as big as the Oberheim 8, they certainly would. They would probably sell plenty of them as well.

What is going to be interesting is to observe over the next 6-10 years is to see if they continue as they have now that the employees have been given ownership.


Will they do a AAAAA wood Theremin with diamond encrusted pot caps and platinum antennae to celebrate its centennial? Dare I say it isn't irrational to argue it is possible? :D
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latigid on
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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by latigid on » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:04 am

Moog's pricing is on the boutique side but that's what you got with through-hole hand assembly. The latter units are now SMT but priced with the older labour factored in. This maintains the boutique appeal. You see the transition to "cut-down" versions like Minifoogers and Theremini (and Animoog which is a one time software investment) as a way to break through to a more mainstream market.

The BB delay units are not priced highly due to pixie dust chips being expensive, but more on their supply being limited. This way all of the R&D cost must be spread over a smaller run. It begs the question why it wasn't designed with long-term supply chains in the first place. Maybe there really is no alternative, but perhaps the low availability also adds to the boutique appeal.

C.f. Modular reissue: limited run, 'nuff said.

So any potential polysynths are also likely to be expensive and in limited supply. Or go for a cut price model that doesn't hit the right notes. Moog would then be accused of not listening to their customer base, which damages their brand. Hence the dilemma and why I think we haven't yet seen an updated poly.

My 2c...

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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by LivePsy » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:14 am

The poly debate is a tough one. There are many fine digital synths and digital is such a natural match for polyphony (and analog is clearly not) that making true analog path polys now seems unnecessary. I guess it comes down to musical purpose. If this long awaited analog poly just plays the Jump intro and brass chords, then count me out. This is not synthesis, its a organ. The great chord sounds of synth history are stringers and samplers.

B
I've stopped talking now.

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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by Mike37 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:31 am

Why not simply get a Modulus 008? You'll probably get more for you money there, than what Moog could potentially offer for the same price. The Modulus 008 also has a 100% discrete design. I'd much rather have a Voyager II or whatever, taking the improvements from Sub 37, and making a new flagship monophonic model with a more "classic" sound, ie. more frequency content and a more big/lively sound - like the original Minimoog Model D.

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Re: Voyager RME Discontinued

Post by bichuelo » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:44 pm

LivePsy wrote:The poly debate is a tough one. There are many fine digital synths and digital is such a natural match for polyphony (and analog is clearly not) that making true analog path polys now seems unnecessary. I guess it comes down to musical purpose. If this long awaited analog poly just plays the Jump intro and brass chords, then count me out. This is not synthesis, its a organ. The great chord sounds of synth history are stringers and samplers.

B
Your description is spot on. I don't think a rack of Voyagers playing a piano patch would be something different from a very messy and clumsy sound to work with.

Maybe the ARP Solina kind of strings sound could be nice, but I can't think of any other useful analog-poly patch at all...
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