Modulation Busses section question

Tips and techniques for Minimoog Analog Synthesizers
User avatar
meterman
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:11 am

Modulation Busses section question

Post by meterman » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:51 pm

I don't feel like I have a decent grasp on the Modulation Busses section of the voyager. I have read through the manual, and it still seems kind of grey for me.
specifically the Shaping section, any body out there feel like they can break it down to me, or point me towards some more detailed info about it would be much appreciated.

Also the Env. Gate setting on the LFO as well, what does this do?

Thanks

JnGd
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by JnGd » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:47 pm

Hi,

here is what I did to try to understand the BUSSES. It is my latest version...read along with the drawing p.15-16, p.31 to 36
and p.51 to 54.

I must admit that I still don't understand tough, why the HIGH value is associated with "coarse" and the LOW value with "fine"
on the panel screen menu.

I don't use much the LFO SYNC control for now, it is mainly at the OFF/SYNC position. Two of the knob position
are MIDI-related and my setup isn't.

The best reference you can have is to call and speak to staff where you bought your Voyager, staff at the distributor,
staff at MoogMusic and people on this forum.



hope it helps you, others and me too !

ColorForm2113
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Illinois(e)

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by ColorForm2113 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:58 am

I honestly didn't get a full grasp until about 3 months ago. I've had my Voyager almost 2 years. It just sort of clicked one day and everything be came so much easier to understand.

So to REALLY simplify things, the source is what will be modulating the destination. The shaping modulates the amount. So example would be set the Source to ON, set the destination to pitch, set the shaping to Filter Env and amount to Zero. Then set the the filter envelope for a long attack, short decay, zero sustain and release.

In this arrangement, the On source sends +5 volt to the pitch. Rising and falling in the shape of the filter envelope.


If you were to switch the shaping to pressure, then how far you push the keys down determines how much the pitch increases.

As far as the lfo sync, it doesn't sync in beat divisions or anything like that. It just resets the lfo waveform at the peak of what ever the sync source is. So if it's set to "key" every time you press a key it will restart the lfo, or if it's filter envelope, every time the envelope triggers it will restart the lfo.

Hope this helps, let me know if you want any further examples. Maybe I could whip up a video to show you better.
My modular so far: Q104, Q106 x2, Q107, Q108, Q109 x2 , Q116, Q118, Q127 w/Q140, Q130, STG Wave Folder, Mixer and Mankato playing with Moog Voyager, VX-351, CP-251, MF-104M x2 ( STEREO!) Volca Beats and Bass, Arturia Beat step

User avatar
stiiiiiiive
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by stiiiiiiive » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:09 am

Meterman, let me give a try:

SOURCE is self explanatory.
DESTINATION is self explanatory.
AMOUNT is the maximum of modulation you will get
SHAPER is the way the modulation will go from 0 to AMOUNT in time.

Hence SHAPER determines how the modulation evolves from 0 to AMOUNT, its maximum.

I hope this makes things clearer :)
Last edited by stiiiiiiive on Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JnGd
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by JnGd » Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:57 pm

Hi again Meterman,

Imagine yourself on a surf board, at a certain distance from shore...from that distance you see the shore...
you have a message to deliver to shore...so it can modify your signal, your note, your melody, your performance
which is "walking" on the beach...from right shore (SOURCE) to left shore (DESTINATION)

the sea is calm...no wave at all...but there is a light wind and you move toward that shore...yes sir !
there is a "wave breaker" near the shore, you need to cross it to get to the beach, your lucky, it is fully open,
that is the PERFORMANCE CONTROL (MOD WHEEL or MOD 1 INPUT jack)

Imagine if you could decide how the wave would moove...that is the SHAPER, you've become a SHAPERMAN !

Dr.Moog thought that you could have 2 SHAPERS that always act TOGETHER...no mater what

SHAPER no.1 could be KEYBOARD CV with a value of -42 to +27
SHAPER no.2 could be a FIXED VALUE of -37 to +41 alone, or vice-versa, whatever you decide within the choices we have (p.53)

Imagine how the wave would moove up and down...that is amplitude...the FIXED VALUE...offset voltage
biggest wave possible......-2,5V to +2,5V or -64 to +64
thinyest wave possible......0V or NO FIXED VALUE AT ALL
other type of wave.........-1,25V to +1,25V or -32 to +32
-0,625V to +0,625V or -16 to +16
-0,370V to + 0,630V or -___to +____

you decide how that wave will act on your surf board, your message
tiny bottom-high crest...
deep bottom-tiny crest...

the FIXED VALUE is a FIRST BOOST to that message (drawing on page 31, first vertical zig-zag with arrow at mid-point)
the AMOUNT is the SECOND BOOST to that message (drawing on page 31, second vertical zig-zag with arrow at mid-point)

It will affect your "vision" of the shore at that distance, you will see the shore moove up and down...you decide

is the analogy helping ?


EDIT: 2015-Feb-01...I made a terrible mistake here...it should have been like this:

SHAPER no.1 could be KEYBOARD CV, or one of the list at page 53 of the manual
SHAPER no.2 could be a FIXED VALUE from -37 to +41, or one of the list at page 53 of the manual


We cannot give a range (-64 to +64) to anything but the FIXED VALUE...

And for what is following, I can't seem to get these surplus-voltage values when measuring from the VX-351...
I can measure about -1 to +1V in extra when both shapers are together at their maximum values (-64 to +64).

Imagine how the wave would moove up and down...that is amplitude...the FIXED VALUE...offset voltage
biggest wave possible......-2,5V to +2,5V or -64 to +64
thinyest wave possible......0V or NO FIXED VALUE AT ALL
other type of wave.........-1,25V to +1,25V or -32 to +32
-0,625V to +0,625V or -16 to +16
-0,370V to + 0,630V or -___to +____

For the rest I think I'm ok. I am very sorry if it fooled anybody.
I will get back to correct anything else if so after talking or E-mailing to Moog Music staff.

EDIT: 2015-Feb-16...had a "panic momentum" here...happens sometimes...looks like the "fixed values" does something
on the modulation path...either busses... From the VX-351, I can't get extra voltages more than ±4 V because it is design
to regulate what comes out from both busses, manual p. 96...waiting for precise facts from Moog Music, meanwhile, I'll
try to look cool and stay put...

nice hapenings to all
Last edited by JnGd on Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ColorForm2113
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Illinois(e)

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by ColorForm2113 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:06 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
My modular so far: Q104, Q106 x2, Q107, Q108, Q109 x2 , Q116, Q118, Q127 w/Q140, Q130, STG Wave Folder, Mixer and Mankato playing with Moog Voyager, VX-351, CP-251, MF-104M x2 ( STEREO!) Volca Beats and Bass, Arturia Beat step

User avatar
Vsyevolod
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by Vsyevolod » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:32 pm

Wow, and I thought the Theory of Relativity was difficult to understand!

Stephen




.

EricK
Posts: 5972
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by EricK » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:37 pm

I thought the Shape summed with the Modulation amount.
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://npo.networkforgood.org/Donate/Donate.aspx?npoSubscriptionId=4043

I think I hear the mothership coming.

JnGd
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by JnGd » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:27 pm

Meterman, are we seeing you surfing towards us from ashore ?

User avatar
stiiiiiiive
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by stiiiiiiive » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:28 pm

EricK wrote:I thought the Shape summed with the Modulation amount.

Hmm... I believe if you set the amount to zero, no SHAPER will lead to effective modulation. But you had me wanting to check :)

EDIT: So I've just checked. If the Voyager old school's "CONTROLLERS" are the same thing as the Voyager Performer's "SHAPERS", then I'm positive that Total moulation = AMOUNT x SHAPER.

EricK
Posts: 5972
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by EricK » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:23 pm

Yeah,upon inspection, the shape gave no apparent modulation at all with the amount set to zero, which makes sense due to the voltage being attenuated to nothing, right?
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://npo.networkforgood.org/Donate/Donate.aspx?npoSubscriptionId=4043

I think I hear the mothership coming.

User avatar
stiiiiiiive
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by stiiiiiiive » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:36 am

Well, to me it makes sense since they multiply each other to result in the total modulation. I.e. whenever one of them is zero, there is no modulation.

The way I see it:
- SHAPER/CONTROLLER evolves between 0 and a maximum CV value over the time(envelopes, LFOs, etc) or not (ON, pedal not moved).
- AMOUNT is a constant between 0 and 1, set via the knob.

When AMOUNT is set to full, SHAPER/CONTROLLER can express freely.
When AMOUNT is set to zero, anything is multiplied by zero.
Everywhere in between is fun too :)
Last edited by stiiiiiiive on Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
meterman
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:11 am

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by meterman » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:59 pm

Hey thanks everybody, Think i'm starting to see the light, using the source as "ON/MOD2" allowed me to dial in some modulation using the Filter EG shaping or pressure, seemed to show well what is going on, for some reason I never really tried that before. I appreciate all the insights and approaches to the subject.

I guess that has lead me to another question:

So what is the difference between turning up the amount to filter knob on the "Filter Envelope section"
or patching using the Pedal/ON Mod Bus "Source > ON/MOD2 Destination>Filt Shape>Filt. Env. and turning up the Amount Knob there?

Shouldn't the amount knob of the Pedal/On Mod Bus. act identical to the center to right position of the amount knob in the Envelope Filter section?

Cause it sounds less dramatic to me.

ColorForm2113
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Illinois(e)

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by ColorForm2113 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:06 pm

It might be that either the filter envelope section puts out a higher voltage than the Pedal buss or that one gives an exponential response and the other gives a linear. That's just a guess though
My modular so far: Q104, Q106 x2, Q107, Q108, Q109 x2 , Q116, Q118, Q127 w/Q140, Q130, STG Wave Folder, Mixer and Mankato playing with Moog Voyager, VX-351, CP-251, MF-104M x2 ( STEREO!) Volca Beats and Bass, Arturia Beat step

JnGd
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: Modulation Busses section question

Post by JnGd » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:05 pm

Hi,

just did that test over and over and it's quite the same to my ears...I can recall a "pico-difference" but ? I wonder if it is just normal...
it's analog, all those interconnexions and still quite the same sound...I am assuming that nothing was plugged in the ON/MOD 2 jack...

EDIT: yes, there is a difference...if the FILTER MODE is Highpass/Lowpass...the sound isn't the same...my test was only on Dual lowpass
which sounded the same...except for the pico-differences of my bad ears!
Last edited by JnGd on Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply