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Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby Vsyevolod » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:29 pm

EricK, what's your reasoning on that? I turn all my gear on and off with light switches that my gear is plugged into. Several switches so that I can turn the amp on last and off first, turn various pieces on without turning others on, etc. Is this not a good idea?

Stephen




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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby Control_Voltage » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:59 pm

Hello Everyone,

I am Andy Hughes, Manager of the Moog Tech Support and Service Department.

First of all, to alleviate everyone's concerns, this IS NOT A RECALL.

We have no evidence at all that would lead us to believe that all of the Voyagers built during this time period are going to inevitably fail.

That being said, there has been a failure rate of units built during the time period listed in the Announcement that has been in excess of our normally extremely strict standard of performance. We are Moog, we build excellent gear, and we stand behind it.

This is why we are stepping up to the plate and we are going to take care of Voyager owners who have problems with their instruments, despite being out of warranty. We are doing this because we know you believe in the Moog brand, and so do we.

However, if you do NOT have a problem with your instrument, please do not allow this announcement to create unnecessary anxiety. We will take care of you down the road, IF and WHEN you have an actual problem. There is no reason to perform a prophylactic repair on an instrument that is performing perfectly. If we felt this was necessary we would have done a full recall, but our data does not indicate this is at all necessary.

We are monitoring this situation closely and we working with our I.C. vendors to ensure this never happens again.

If you have any questions(serial number/date of production/etc.) or concerns, please contact me at [email protected] or by calling 1-(828)-251-0090 extension 221 or my assistant Nick Montoya at [email protected] and ext. 217.

Thank you,
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby thealien666 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:36 pm

That's all fine, Andy, but that doesn't tell us what range of serial numbers are concerned by these potentially, but not necessarily, defective Voyagers? Surely Moog Music must know them ?

What is Moog Music's "normally extremely strict standard of performance" that you're talking about exactly, in actual numbers please ? 1 repair for every 10 synth produced, 100 synth produced, or 1000 synth produced ?

Also, how many Voyagers exactly, of each models, were produced so far to this day ?

Those are questions that we would very much like to know, if Moog Music wants Voyager owners to be reassured. :wink:
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby LA Keys » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:47 pm

the alien 666 (and all)

While I'm absolutely not related to Moog business I do design and manufacture electronic devices for a living, although in small scale production.

Let me first say that I don't know about ANY other musical instrument manufacturer who extended it's warranty well beyond the end date because they found a potential problem with a chip they are using. What moog is doing is plain admirable and above and beyond what I've seen from any other musical instrument manufacturer. I could easily give you a list of problems with instruments from brands like KORG, Roland and Dave Smith that where sometimes simply not resolved, and certainly not for a period of up to 5 years after the purchase. None of them ever extended their warranty beyond the usual 1 or 2 years even if those problem where well known and sometimes even documented.

thealien666 wrote:but that doesn't tell us what range of serial numbers are concerned by these potentially, but not necessarily, defective Voyagers?


The thing is that as a manufacturer you buy parts, build things, sell things, buy more parts and the cycle continue. Then BOOM! you start to have returns because of a bad chip,sometines years after you built them... How do you expect Moog to know exactly when the problem happened? It's almost impossible because (and that is your next question) there should be 0 (zero) repair for instrument caused by a defective chip. Simply because you're expecting your chip to be 100% defect free. It is the responsability of the chip manufacturer to guarantee that. What is "acceptable" by today standart: 1/1000. Because of this very low percentage it's very hard to tell precisely when it started and when it ended...

Moog responsability is to build and assemble all those parts the right way, which they are doing very well. Their quality control is there to make sure they did a good job, but there's no way for them to predict that a good chip will fail in say 500 hours.

I should say that I'm truly impressed by how Moog is handling this issue and whishes that every other musical instrument manufacturer would do the same.

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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby thealien666 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:31 pm

I know what you're saying LA Keys, and agree with most of it. Especially the fact that no other company, except maybe car manufacturers forced by law, would do such a thing.

While I admire the passion with which Moog Music's service department addresses issues, even outside the warranty period, and they must be commended for such a commitment to customer satisfaction I've said so many times in the past, this bulletin sent by email to registered Voyager owners might not have had the intended effect.

And in fact, it might have scared a few that bought their machine during those years when Moog had been supplied with potentially defective chips. That's why Andy probably felt the need to come here to try to clarify things.

I'm only wondering why, if Moog Music knows that it's in the period of 2010-2013, why they can't tell approximately from what serial number to what other serial number those potentially defective chips were used. Surely they must keep track of what parts they use and when ?

And also I'm wondering why they didn't simply proceed to a full blown (no pun intended) recall of those analog boards for those serial numbers as a preventive measure, instead of waiting for those boards to potentially eventually fail during a show or performance, and only try to minimize the problem and reassure Voyager owners by saying "if ever there is something wrong with your analog board, and your Voyager was made during the 2010-2013 period, we'll fix it".

If they felt the need to send that bulletin by email to all registered Voyager owners, it's most probably because there was an alarming number of returns of those models, even if they try to minimize it, don't you think ? I think it's called "damage control marketing".

I'm talking from experience, since my Old School broke down 3 months after purchase, and had to be sent to a Moog Music authorized repair center in my country to get it fixed, not once but two times until it got fixed right finally (replacement of the analog board). All under warranty, of course, but I was pretty bummed by that. Maybe I was extremely unlucky, but I don't believe so anymore, now that Moog has sent out this bulletin. Especially since I bought my Voyager Old School back in 2008, well before the 2010-2013 period...
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby DeckardTrinity » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:35 am

With regard to Moog publishing a list of affected serial numbers: I see this as having no value other than to negatively impact the resale value of those units. Since they are not implementing an actual recall, but instead offering a pseudo "extended warranty" (pseudo in the sense that we really don't know for how long that warranty will last, but one might have faith in Moog offering it indefinitely), those units would look to the potential used market then as the black sheep of the family, since they "might" fail at a higher rate than those that weren't part of the list. Maybe I'm wrong and the market wouldn't price those particular units down because they could be fixed if one of the listed problems surfaces, but then you would also potentially face an unexpected down-time and hassle of dealing with a repair.

Tough to really know one way or the other, but IMO, if they have the ability and desire to publish a list of serial numbers, that should go hand in hand with an offer for a preventative repair.
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby Vsyevolod » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:06 pm

Thanks LA Keys for a well reasoned and level headed post. You explain the intricacies of the business very well.

Stephen




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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby EMwhite » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:07 pm

thealien666 wrote:Also, how many Voyagers exactly, of each models, were produced so far to this day ?


More than 7,705 :D see this post from a year ago: http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101864
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby warby » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:10 pm

Very fair response from Moog there, can't argue with that...thanks for clarifying Andy.
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby thealien666 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:40 pm

EMwhite wrote:
thealien666 wrote:Also, how many Voyagers exactly, of each models, were produced so far to this day ?


More than 7,705 :D see this post from a year ago: http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101864



That gives us an idea, but it's mainly speculation based on serial numbers gathered around the web. I'd like to get the official numbers from Moog, but I won't hold my breath on that... :mrgreen:
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby JnGd » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:29 pm

Hi,
thank you for that fix Mr. Hughes...my "marvelous machine" is in that time period...will try tests as mention but the
ones with MIDI since my set up isn't MIDI yet...waiting for news on the MF-104 MSD...what a sonic adventure am I living !
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby thealien666 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:12 am

JnGd, how can you be so sure that your Voyager is from "that time period", just because you bought it between 2010 and 2013 ? It might well have been built well before that, and stocked for a long time before being sold to you later on ?
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby JnGd » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:33 am

Hi to the Alien 666,

I don't want to debate over that,
I just have to follow instructions given to see if something is wrong,
if I want more paths to follow/answers/dates/etc. I will contact Mr. Hughes as he instructed us to do...
that being said, I have to go shovel some snow out of the driveway...left side as source, right side as destination !
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby thealien666 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:01 pm

...in a sawtooth waveform movement I suppose ? :lol:

Anyway, I sincerely hope for you that your beloved Voyager stays healthy for a long long time to come, like hundreds of others like it. Image
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Re: Decision support: is the Voyager a reliable synthesizer?

Postby b.frame » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:41 pm

I dropped my voyager off, which is a select series, to get checked out for bad ICs, plus get an upgrade. I didn't realize, until reading this today, that they would cover it down the road, if there were no problems atm. Oh, well, better safe than sorry, plus, I get to upgrade it.
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