Voyager Editor

Tips and techniques for Minimoog Analog Synthesizers
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fyvewytches
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by fyvewytches » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:21 am

I entirely agree with Stephen.

Mark, I am sure your post here is very much appreciated but your company has at the very least a moral obligation to provide it's customers with a properly working product or, if it cannot do that, to issue a refund to customers.
Latest track, Dancing On The Ecliptic http://soundcloud.com/ianman/dancing-on-the-ecliptic-demo

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fyvewytches
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by fyvewytches » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:33 am

sts wrote:Hi Stephen,

I am sorry, you drawing your conclusions without knowing any facts and you present them in such a way that normally no self-respecting person would want to engage. I am sorry but you know nothing about what you just wrote about. You know nothing about any aspect of the software development and delivery and everything else in this regard for that matter. Just a fact that you writing about the other manufacturer on this forum proves a point. I am sorry but I will not engage. Please stick to the point -what's wrong with the Voyager software? I will help.

But since you want to continue with other stuff... I recall when Roger Linn told me when we worked together on a project, He said, Mark, beware of Beta testers who are offended when they find a bug, you don't want them. I am learning now how right he was. I am sorry but your motivation behind wanting to help became an obsession. I am sorry but you do not know much about K. systems, about the PC3LE and what PC3 and PC3K have in common, you do not know about the complexity and how much work was put there to achieve what is being done so far and please do not mention money. I am sorry that I feel I have to respond to this rant.
There is nothing that we did that could prevent you form making music. If you did not get a grammy award just because you expressed interest in our software - I apologize.


Ok, my previous post was written before this quote one form Mark appeared.

Mark, I am a software developer. If you are only learning now how to deal with bug reports you maybe in the wrong job. And just a suggestion, don't go into PR. if I write to a paying customer as you just did I would probably get fired.

You may not be preventing people from making music but you are taking money off people in exchange for a piece of useless software.

Oh and don't expect a Grammy award for your manners.
Latest track, Dancing On The Ecliptic http://soundcloud.com/ianman/dancing-on-the-ecliptic-demo

sts
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by sts » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:21 am

fyvewytches wrote:
Mark, I am a software developer. If you are only learning now how to deal with bug reports you maybe in the wrong job. And just a suggestion, don't go into PR. if I write to a paying customer as you just did I would probably get fired.


I totally agree with you. I am horrible with PR and I should not be doing this after 16h of work on Monday night. However, Stephan is not a paying customer in a case that he brings up here. He received free updates for a free software. How we can refund that?

Stephan, to be completely fair, while working on the synth during the beta testing stage you were excellent, You had unmatched attention to details. You brought up issued deeply buried inside the system. We all appreciated it very much. What I have problem with is that by joining testers group you are obligated not to bring up any issues specially on an unrelated forum or anywhere else.

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fyvewytches
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by fyvewytches » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:02 pm

sts wrote:I totally agree with you. I am horrible with PR and I should not be doing this after 16h of work on Monday night.


Correct, you should not be providing support (this being used in the widest sense possible) as an afterthought on a Monday evening after 16 hours of hard labour. Customer support from a software vendor should be provided on a full time basis. Didn't Mr Linn teach you that ?

sts wrote:However, Stephan is not a paying customer in a case that he brings up here. He received free updates for a free software. How we can refund that?


What about the rest of us ? You notice that there are one or two unhappy customers around here.

sts wrote:What I have problem with is that by joining testers group you are obligated not to bring up any issues specially on an unrelated forum or anywhere else.


"unrelated forum" ??? ROTFL !!
Latest track, Dancing On The Ecliptic http://soundcloud.com/ianman/dancing-on-the-ecliptic-demo

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misterpete
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by misterpete » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:25 pm

rotfl... i don't remember it being quite THAT crappy ~ but to be fair I haven't even bothered launching it in ages ~ I use both Voyager and XL in a very old school analog modular patch way ~ not nearly as interested in presets as I assumed I would be when I bought the ST Editor
I guess we are not seeing any updates for this editor anytime soon, now that everybody in the universe has slagged the poor guy off? :lol:
meanwhile, the Voyager itself is due for a Firmware update - specifically, adding MIDI filtering as we see on the rest of the instruments <nudge nudge!>
Please Call Me, PETE
http://soundcloud.com/misterpete
"Mr. Pete" at MuffWiggler |@petedako on Twitter

sts
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by sts » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:35 pm

Hi fyvewytches,

In my first post I tried to help with issues that were brought here like renaming of presets and saving banks in the editor that seemed to spark flames. I offered my help with any other problems related to the Voyager editor. Please try me. I would prefer that you contact me or our support directly so customers who need help with the software do not have to read through flames, stuff that I cannot respond to without creating more flames. I just want to help.

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Vsyevolod
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by Vsyevolod » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:47 am

Mark,

You are doing what you always do on this list and others... blame other people and don't address the real issues that they bring up. Instead you revert to name calling and telling people what they do and don't know.

I have gotten to the point with you and your company that I will continue to go on record to say that you have yet to prove yourself trustworthy. I care about the community here and over at the Kurzweil groups. I don't like it when software companies come in promising functional software and continually fail to deliver. You are taking money from my brothers and sisters in the music world and not delivering a reliable product.

You don't like it that I bring up Kurzweil... well it's a good example to bring up because you are doing the same exact things here, namely offering support on this forum and not really giving us proper software. I did not sign any non-disclosure agreement nor have I said anything here that hasn't been said online dozens of times by others. Calling me out on this technicality makes it sound like you are trying to hide something. Are you?

I gave you countless number of hours over the years trying to help you debug your software. I do not expect you to fix everything (though thanks for lumping me into a group of people that you can then make generalizations about while slagging me personally). And you tell me that "I got it for free so shouldn't be complaining"... Me, one of your strongest supporters online for the past 5 years.

I have been working with your Kurzweil software since 2008. At no time during those 5 years have I seen anything close to an acceptable editor (no, I am neither offended nor obsessed, but thanks anyway for trying to psychoanalyze me). And now I'm hearing my brothers and sisters on this forum (okay, mostly bros...) complain about the exact same kinds of problems that I have experienced. You are not delivering a reliable product. Some of the unreliability should have been caught without the help of Beta testers, it was just that awful. But you instead put faulty software out there for us to troubleshoot for you, and then either take years to fix it or worse, never fix it.

I tried to rename a program on the latest Kurzweil editor (released September 2013). Instead of renaming it, the program was deleted. Nor did it ask me to save any changes, it just deleted it out of my keyboard. This is just a small example of things that you should have caught before releasing the software on an unsuspecting world. This is Alpha software, not Beta...

My suggestion, and a way for you to reclaim some of the honour that you've let slip:

ONE - Refund EVERYONE who asks for a refund. No questions asked.

TWO - Go ahead and fix the worst of the bugs that are reported. You don't have to treat your Beta testers like pond scum, they are here to help you. Neither do you have to fix every little last thing that they report. Your Beta testers will be able to rate their bug reports as Minor, Serious, or 'Stop the Presses!' don't ever release a program like this... Trust them, don't treat them like garbage. Don't assume that you know what they do and don't know. In short, don't be such an arrogant prig.

THREE - Finally, apologize to this list and every other list you've been less than trustworthy and honourable with. Suck it up. Stop the personal attacks. Start acting like you care about music and musicians. If you truly can't do that last thing, they get the hell out of this business and stay out.

And to everyone else, please keep SoundTower's feet to the fire. If you feel that there is something non-functional about a piece of software that you got from SoundTower, either free or paid for, then say it out loud here on this forum or whatever forum is most appropriate for that particular software. Write to Moog (or whomever) and let them know your experiences with SoundTower. Likewise, if there are things that you appreciate about their software, this is also a good place to speak your mind. Do not, I repeat DO NOT keep the conversation just between you and SoundTower. This is what they want because it keeps people in the dark about their overall non-responsiveness. Keep it public and keep it constant.

With respect to all the hard working musicians out there, both professional and otherwise, Grammy winners and home studio warriors. I still hold out hope that one day SoundTower may too earn our respect.

Stephen




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dravis14
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by dravis14 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:02 pm

Xlnt response once the ST guy showed up......and I wholeheartedly agree with the ranting....very frustrating software.. I can move any bank onto Voyager Editor screen, but can't get it into library. Transmit and receive don't seem to be working.
However, I have an idea....Hey Mark, or any other ST guy, if you guys are truly contrite about the software issues that we're all dealing with, and you are interested in squelching the obvious mob mentality that exists here, perhaps there's a way that we can help each other.
My name is Don...I am available from 8am -12pm @ 310 261-9550 PST 7 days a week......if you call me and personally walk me thru the dynamics of the problem that I just mentioned while I have my Electric Blue and your software both fired up, IN EXCHANGE, I will give you the best damn attaboy on this forum,as well as to Moog themselves.
Trust me, I'll lay it on thick.........here is an opportunity for you to step up to the plate and show some real concern for the people who buy your products.......Thanx

Synthetically Yours,
Don S. dravis14

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Vsyevolod
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by Vsyevolod » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:01 pm

The curious reader might note that Moog no longer uses SoundTower for their editors. The new SubPhatty uses an in-house editor. And it actually works well.

Their actions speak volumes in this case.

Stephen




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tih
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by tih » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:41 am

sts wrote:I just double checked and saving of banks seems to work fine and so does loading them back.
In the Bank/Lib window there are bank saving/loading functions located under the "Banks" window menu.

The bank that is being saved is always the current selected bank. If you select the bank G by pressing the G button then the Bank G will be saved. If you want to save some other banks you need to select them first If you want to load your saved bank back, you will get a window dialog with the list of presets saved in that file. There, you can select the bank where you want to load that bank to and press "Apply" button and close that window. To write the loaded bank to the Voyager, press the "Transmit" button.


Um, now I'm even more confused... :)

When I select a bank, by pressing one of the "A"-"G" buttons, and then choose save (either from the menu, or by button press), the stored file will contain exactly the same data, regardless of which of the seven banks I selected before saving. (A binary comparison utility confirms that the files are identical.) Running 'strings' on the file will list out the preset names of the presets in bank G, so I assumed that it was saving that bank every time.

Loading one of these files, however, lets me choose which of the seven banks I want to load from the file, and which of the seven banks I want to load it into. This seems to imply that all seven banks are actually stored in the file. For a moment, I thought that was my misunderstanding, and the presence of bank G preset names in clear text was just a coincidence - but you seem to confirm that it's supposed to save only the currently selected bank.

I'm running version 3.7 of the Windows edition of the Editor.

unfiltered37
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by unfiltered37 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:51 pm

No offense, but get back to the instrument. Moogs are meant for hands on tweaking, not trying to work out software bugs. The Voyager already has what 100 presets? If that is not enough, just learn the instrument better so everything becomes intuitive. I had the voyager and editor for a while, and never needed it, yet never ran out of things to do and new sounds. Plus the bad energy on this thread is not at all conducive to good music making, unless you count rage metal if that is a thing.

Again, get back to the knobs, keys, and cords, not a computer.

TonyR
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by TonyR » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:26 pm

Reminds me of a thread almost 10 years ago :D

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=826

sunny pedaal
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by sunny pedaal » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:31 am

unfiltered37 wrote:No offense, but get back to the instrument. Moogs are meant for hands on tweaking, not trying to work out software bugs. The Voyager already has what 100 presets? If that is not enough, just learn the instrument better so everything becomes intuitive. I had the voyager and editor for a while, and never needed it, yet never ran out of things to do and new sounds. Plus the bad energy on this thread is not at all conducive to good music making, unless you count rage metal if that is a thing.

Again, get back to the knobs, keys, and cords, not a computer.


all true,
just a pity for those who paid for an editor as they have a different way of working with the voyager

unfiltered37
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by unfiltered37 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:36 am

Yes, but if they just simply let it go and focus on what is there rather than what is not there, they won't care. I sold my voyager, and work on a model D, some MF's, MP-201 and studio gear (as far as synthesis), and after years, I have not run out of new things to do.

The best way to discover sounds IMO is to start simple, a basic sound that you know and that sounds great on its own, and can dial up by ear, and explore from there. When you use presets, you are starting from a different place every time, which can be interesting, but then you rely on it and since you don't know really what the settings are, you lose the intuition and musicality. Plus diving though menus is completely counter to musical creativity.

The thing is about Moogs, as with most synths, is that even when you think you know everything there is to know about it, if you look at it deeply and creatively enough, you can always find new paths to take. For example, I have been messing with the mixer knobs on the model D in combination with the waveform switches, and using all three oscillators. Even without the filter or envelopes, there is a huge amount of variation you can get. Think about it probabilistically: 3 osc * 5 waveforms and 5 octave settings each and many tuning variations. That itself is huge, but the real variation is when you mix the oscillators at different levels using different waveforms and hit the filter section at different levels.

There is real substance there that may be difficult to see unless you look hard. I used to think the mixer section was the most boring part, but you can really change the sound in interesting ways even using the same exact settings, just mixing the oscillators relative to each other and the filter in new ways. Then you add the filter and its infinite modulations, and you really cannot run of ideas, and especially on the model D, just about everything sounds amazing, so everything besides the basic sound is just the whipped cream on top. When people say the model D is limited, I just laugh at them.

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fyvewytches
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Re: Voyager Editor

Post by fyvewytches » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:42 am

Sorry but you dont get the issue here. For me anyway, it's not about presets or how many there are. If I need a certain sound, then yes I will use the knobs and switches on the instrument... But when I get to the sound I am looking for, I want to save it. Not because I don't think I'll be able to find it again, but simply because I don't want to waste my time finding it over and over again if I want to play a track. Had it been reliable, I would have used this software as the equivalent to the pencil and paper patch sheet method which has been around for much longer than any "editor". I really don't think this editor is supposed to take out the creative side of the instrument, it should be just a tool to make recording of patches easier.

With my Sonic Six, PS-3100, MicroMac, I work with pencil and paper, does that mean I'm being less creative ?
Latest track, Dancing On The Ecliptic http://soundcloud.com/ianman/dancing-on-the-ecliptic-demo

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