Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Tips and techniques for Minimoog Analog Synthesizers
Spav
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Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:15 am

Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Post by Spav » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:28 am

Hi Gang. I am a new Voyager PE owner and moderate risk taker as I bought a non-working VPE. I have been tinkering with synths for over 35 years and I am a qualified electronics/software engineer and partime muso as well. I have re-written the firmware for an Opera 6 from my reverse engineering so felt that I should be able to manage to work my way through fixing a mono synth. To be honest I just can't wait to get it going so I thought I may as well ask for a few pointers. Here is the story so far.............

Fault:
When the unit is turned on no audio output from either line L&R or headphone sockets. Factory defaults were then applied and still the same. The OS was upgraded from version 3.4 to 3.5. Still no audio after upgrade. It's a later model with the upgraded digital board.

Investigation:
  • LFO led flashes and responds to contol, sync with keyboard flicks LED when key pressed. All front panel controls are providing input to the digital section, ie. change on the display when adjusted. Midi output is all working. Midi In worked as it upgraded okay.
  • Output at the mixer (tested at the insert jack) seem to be present. This output seemed to be okay with various oscillators and modulation sources applied except for envelope modulation. The tone follows the keyboard and glide works.
  • Audio can be produced from most patches when you switch ON/EXTERNAL to on and then cycle the power. This audio is only in the left channel (in the right ear from headphones), master volume and headphone volume are working. Simply turning ON/EXTERNAL to on does not create any output, nor does any key press. Turning off the gate does seem to result in the envelope decay running, however then turning the gate back on does not re trigger the envelope. Keyboard gate signal can be seen on pin 5 of the accessory port. Filter envelope can be seen on pin 21 of the accessory port when no audio and it seems to trigger from the keyboard although ADSR does not seem to respond correctly. The volume envelope pin 9 of the accessory port stays at 0V regardless of the keypress or the ON/EXTERNAL switch state.
  • With audio running as above, the volume envelope sustain level controls the audio level and it follows the decay rate setting when adjusted down but not when adjusted up, although it does come up. Release seems to work when gate is turned off. Also holding a key while turning off the gate, holds the note and then when the key is released it releases as expected. Attack cannot be checked as I cannot trigger the envelope from the keyboard. Just holding a key down when you power up does not produce any output.
  • With audio running as above, switching HP/LP on will kill the audio, turning LP/LP back on restores the sound. When audio is present the filter controls seem to work and track the keyboard. Modulation sources work to the filter. The filter envelope also controls the filter, the AMOUNT and SUSTAIN change the sound and the sustain level seems to track the decay time when changing the sustain level down but not when changing the sustain level up, although it does come up. The filter sweeps on the gate release. Attack cannot be checked as I cannot trigger the envelope.
Conclusions:
As I understand it there are two filters in the Voyager, so one side of the filter or the right VCA has failed, I suspect the filter, as changing to HP/LP kills the audio. Trigging for the envelope is also not working.

Questions:
  • The service manual would be helpful, is it available?
  • I am happly to dig further without a circuit, I can see all the variable controls are using LM13700's, the switchs are all the old CMOS 4016, 4051,4052 and 4053 types and there is a pair of CA3046's which I assume is the transistor arrays used in the filter ladders. The silk screen narrows the area slightly but a pointer to where on the board to start looking would be a big assist?
  • Has anyone seen anything like this before?
Sorry it's a long first post but I simply just can't wait to get it running.

Thanks in advance
Spav
Last edited by Spav on Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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thealien666
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by thealien666 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:01 am

First, welcome!

Second, if you're a tech, send an e-mail to Moog support, and talk to them about getting the service manual for the Voyager. That should make things a lot easier on you. (it is not yet available anywhere online to my knowledge)

Disgnosing and reverse engineering a PCB with over 800 parts, some of them probably defective, can be a daunting task! :shock:

Good luck.

Al.
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
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Spav
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by Spav » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:41 pm

I have found the source of the my trigger not working U7 has failed and the Attack target voltage is not being selected when the gate is applied to one of the control pins of this device. The new part should be with me in a day or so. I will just need a bit of time to get the old device out and fit the new one, I don't want to risk any damage to the main board.

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thealien666
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by thealien666 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:39 pm

Let me guess, U7 wouldn't be a CD4051 by any chance ?
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
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Spav
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by Spav » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:26 pm

Close a 4052, given the posts here abouts I am guessing there are a some power line sequencing things going on.

existenz
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by existenz » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:03 pm

Hi, I have a similar problem with the volume adsr: the attack doesn't affect the volume with zero decay. It's the decay that works as if it is the attack! If i turn the decay knob, then the volume starts to raise slowly, exactly as if i pot mapped the attack on the decay knob! Another weird thing is that with decay set to zero the note still plays a bit less than a second, and doesn't produce anymore very fast clicks like before.... It's a strange thing that often, if i reset the patch to init parameter then it seems to start working normally, but after a while weird things start happening again...I tried to reset the voyager to factory settings (and doing this i've lost the electric blue extra bank...do you know if i can recover these patch again?)..... Do you think it's a hardware problem like yours or it's a software issue? I bought the electric blue voyager in october 2010. Does anyone know if there is a new operating system? since i've never updated the OS..i think is the 3.4...is it possible that if i try to reinstall the os things could be fixed automatically?
I hope you could help me understand what's going on my envelope, and sorry for my poor english!
Nico
Voyager electric blue, Vx-351, Cp-251, Ring modulator, Murf, Phaser, Freqbox.

Spav
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by Spav » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:26 pm

New CD4052B fitted and we now have a working ish Voyager. The next problem the HP/LP filter switch not doing it's thing. I am going to stick my neck out and guess another analogue switch has gone west!!! So more happy hunting shouldn't take too long to find as I am started to know my way arond this board now.

On a slightly differed point the noise on long delays and low notes does anyone know what was replaced by the factory to fix this?
There is a suggestion it was some Op Amps?

Existenz, I would check to see if there is reverse volume enevlope in the menu somewhere (this rings a faint bell). But if you have factory reset your machine and checked the pot mapping you may have a dud as well. I guess the banks your missing should be on the web somewhere.

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thealien666
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by thealien666 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:23 pm

Spav wrote:New CD4052B fitted and we now have a working ish Voyager. The next problem the HP/LP filter switch not doing it's thing. I am going to stick my neck out and guess another analogue switch has gone west!!! So more happy hunting shouldn't take too long to find as I am started to know my way arond this board now...
If analog switches are starting to fail, one after the other, I would suspect that there might be something wrong with the PSU board. Like unfiltered spikes, or high frequency bleeding into the power rail (the Voyager uses a switching type PSU). Some CMOS ICs don't particularly like that...

Or it could simply be that Moog was supplied a bad batch of those chips, at one point.

Have you talked to Moog support about your issues ?
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Spav
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Re: Noob with issues

Post by Spav » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:34 am

Next fault found the Filter Envelope has a problem the analogue switch on the envelope rate selection has failed, so the rate is constant on all phases only the sustain level varies how the filter sounds. The first fault was masking this one, so another 4052 change tonight and I should then have a working Filter envelope as well.

I have not found the HP/LP switch problem yet but I have identified where the swicth signal goes to (surprise, surprise) more analogue switches, 2x4053's. I will fix the filter envelope first, as the more you get working the easier it is to correctly identify problems, plus it not complex to strip and swap out an IC.

I have not yet contacted Moog but I think I may have to, there does seem to be a bit more to this than a simple device fail, I am suspecting PSU sequencing and there may be a new PSU adapter board on later models.

Spav
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Re: Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Post by Spav » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:43 pm

All faults now found and fixed, SN.2930 is fully opperational. I did make a call to Moog music today. What a change, normally talking to company about faulty gear is a pain, not Moog, Perry was very very helpful and gave me a couple of pointers to help me on my way. So I got in from work flashed up the scope and went hunting, within 30 minutes the last fault had been tracked down, I had the replacement device in stock, replaced the device and all filter functions are now running LP/LP and HP/LP. Both outputs are now functional.

I did call Moog Music back this evening just to thank Perry and give him the good news (not sure work will like my cellular bill, this month) :lol:

Just about to recalibrate the oscillators now, then waste the rest of the evening playing :D

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filtered
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Re: Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Post by filtered » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:05 pm

great to know that even though the Voyager has umpteen more parts and is way more complex under the hood, it is still well within the fix-it-yourself possibility scope!and cheers to your new Moog!

EricK
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Re: Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Post by EricK » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:42 pm

I wonder what someone did to mes the Voyager up so bad?
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thealien666
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Re: Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Post by thealien666 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:32 pm

Woohoo! Glad to learn that your beloved Moog is in full health again !


So, Spav, was it PSU sequencing after all do you think ?
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
DSI OB6
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Oberheim Matrix-6
Ensoniq SQ-80
Korg DW8000
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Spav
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Re: Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Post by Spav » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:01 am

Once I get over the initial enthusiastic knob twiddling phase I will have a look into the power sequencing. If it is the case as there are many Voyagers that just continue to work, it may just be a marginal thing on my unit. But right at this point, I am just really happy with my bargin Voyager.

From the information I have to date, I bought it faulty so I can never be sure what happened to it. It was bought from a profressional musician and it was in absolute mint condition and came with a cover and I had the original owners email dialogue to Moog, so I can only trust what I had been told about how the unit failed after not being used for a while. Assuming no abuse from the user it is very rare for a number of devices of the same type to fail at the same time (unless subjected to the same stress), but CMOS devices are notable for their tendancies to latch up causing device failures. Also they are not directly connected to each other and their surrounding circuits survived, also the signals do not go external, the only common thing is the supply lines.

But I do have to say I am very impressed with ease and quality of the dialogue with Moog Music and cannot thank them enough for just being so helpful and easy to talk to.

Kenneth
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Re: Noob with no issues and a damn big smile

Post by Kenneth » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:49 am

I have had to call tech support only a handful of times, and each time Perry has been incredibly helpful and personable. I'm not afraid of having tech issues in the future because I know Moog takes care of their customers and that any issue I have in the future will be handled professionally and graciously. Moog is a wonderful company, and Perry ROCKS! :D
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