Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

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The Inflatable T-Rex
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by The Inflatable T-Rex » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:25 pm

I have no problems at all with MIDI timing with my voyager running OS v3.5 through my MPC2000XL. The timing is tight and I'm even playing my voyager with local off, going out through MIDI to the MPC and back out to the voyager via MIDI in and there is no noticeable delay to me.

Worth mentioning is that many MIDI drivers on windows are not very good and can have quite a bit of delay involved and is somewhat a known issue and there are known issue with DirectMusic being the default MIDI device being a really poor performer. Google it and you will find tons of similar issues with MIDI lag under windows. My cheap midi sport 2x2 had unusable amounts of delay for me when I tried to software sequence any of my MIDI gear for example. I could play one thing, and it would be completely different then what was actually recorded using my underpowered netbook. I imagine this is your problem since you mention that you are running your voyager via MIDI and the LP via USB. This is comparing apples to oranges. Id imagine you'd have the same exact delay problems no matter what MIDI device you connected.

However, your problem isn't with your voyager, the MIDI standard, or USB being superior. Its specifically with the MIDI drivers for windows being terrible and causing hiccups and lag. heres a link to get you started troubleshooting in the right place: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec07/a ... h_1207.htm
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MBlom
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by MBlom » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:27 am

In my case it might be that the filter decay is fooling me. Need to mention it to prevent a witch hunt. I sequence the Voyager with a MonoMachine, so no computer latency there. But if the decay is just a tad slow i a snappy bass sound it feels like it's lagging. Especially with 16th note sequences.
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goldphinga
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by goldphinga » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:41 am

MBlom wrote:I don't have any numbers or technical knowledge, but I sometimes FEEL like it's a little slow. Especially with fast 16th note sequences with snappy bass sounds.


That's exactly what i mean- I've known other manufacturers to update firmware to enhance midi timing so perhaps this can be done on the Voyager. :)
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GovernorSilver
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by GovernorSilver » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:01 pm

goldphinga wrote:We are talking milliseconds but theres a big difference between 1 and 177 samples delay. It's something you sense when firing midi back from your daw, it would be hard to pick up from a video.


I see.

All the examples that I found of the Voyager being sequenced had the sequencer running on hardware rather than DAW.

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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by sunny pedaal » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:06 am

maybe open door,
but does the setting: show value of every knob when moved, / or stay on patchname , also influence the fastness in reaction of the voyager ?
same like for datasenddensity, etc ?
it all has to be done by the same cpu...

akamruz
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by akamruz » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:18 pm

Voyger timing is sloppy.

Even our friend who '' believes'' that it is tight can test and see it.

-First you need to be sure that your system's audio recording latency is compensated from within the DAW you are using.
-Program a patch with the fastest attack time possible.Preferably with the noise source as the sound generator.
-Write a 4 bar pattern with 16th notes per beat.
-Trigger voyager with this pattern and record the audio.
-In the audio editor of your DAW, zoom in to the recorded audio and check how much apart is the audio and the actual start of the note.You will see that it is sometimes ahead and sometimes behind.

Even if you use a sample accurate midi clock generator like '' innerclock systems sync lock'' or ''snd acme 4'' and trigger the Voyager with an analogue sequencer you will see that the recorded material is always a bit ahead or behind.
To see how much is that bit you can do the test above or check this website.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... itmus.html

The information about midi timing on this website is very useful.

Voyager is a great sounding synth with a bad timing.
It can probably be improved with a software update.(this is something i am not sure of)

What a christmas present that update would be!!!

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Vsyevolod
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by Vsyevolod » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:08 pm

Hey Akamruz, welcome to this forum. You may want to introduce yourself and let us know what your interest in Moog Voyagers is before telling us how crappy life is... :)

akamruz wrote:Voyger timing is sloppy.


Well actually according to your website, it's not sloppy which would imply jitter, rather it's consistently late by 3.69ms. On stage I push those black and white thingy's and if I need to push them a tiny bit earlier, my musical instincts automatically compensate and doesn't even bother to let me know it's doing that. Musical perfection (as long as I can hit the correct notes...). 3.69ms is less than having my guitar amp positioned 4 feet away from me.

In the studio, if I'm feeling ultra anal, I just move the timing up by an appropriate amount to match 'perfection'.

Now where again does this 3.69ms delay come into your life to make things difficult?

Regards,

Stephen




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RL
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by RL » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:04 pm

Hi,
is there a MIDI timing difference between single trigger and multi trigger?
Have fun,
Rudi

akamruz
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by akamruz » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:08 pm

Hi,

Stephan the solution you are offering is not the solution to this problem, It never worked for you and you never actually cared about it.
You feeling anal,your musical instincts or what you do on stage has nothing to do with the facts explained in the website.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com is not my website but if you can spare the time to read the information in that website and examine the test results you can easily see that the timing of voyager is not always ahead.

If you can do the test i posted earlier ,you will know that your recordings are not constantly ahead.Being constantly ahead or constantly behind for the same amount of time is not considered sloppy.

I should probably have mentioned this but ,having bad timing does not make a synth crappy.
Yamaha CS80, Roland Jupiter 8, TR 909 all have bad timings.That doesn't mean that these legendary instruments are crappy.
Voyager is a great synth and i love it,but timing is its issue.Although i am not sure ,i think it can be improved.

It would be great if Moog does something about it.
May be an update to the OS can solve this problem which is important for some of the owners.

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Vsyevolod
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by Vsyevolod » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:14 pm

Your post title says that the Voyager timing 'feels' a little out...

How do you personally experience this 'feel'? If you 'feel' it only when looking at a bunch of numbers on a website, then you're not much of a musician.

If you 'feel' it when trying to play the keyboard and you're consistently getting jitter (notes randomly coming out delayed by an inconsistent amount) then you have a point. My guess is that you don't really 'feel' anything.

Again, welcome to this forum. And before posting your dump of a first post on us, try ingratiating yourself a bit. Tell us about yourself, what kind of music do you play, what band you're in, whether you are a studio bum who never sees the light of day, etc.

Coming onto a forum with a first post full of superiority and butthurt is perhaps not the best way to make friends.

Stephen




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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by EMwhite » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:25 pm

(what did I miss)

The link above talks about the Voyager in the context of a voltage trigger/gate (I think) and the audio response time.

This thread is about Midi?

Granted, if the Voyager response to time a gate (if hard wired) is x, then Midi can only be worse.

On the old, 80's era synths, there was a small microprocessor watching Midi and handling all timing functions and in some cases, running LFOs and envelopes. IN modern synths, there are embedded controllers to handle Midi activity but the Voyager, having a massive analog board is (I think) subject to the design of the circuits.

I used to own an old school and think that the fundamental activity of gating is more or less a hard wired function but you guys are the Voyager experts, you can tell me that the CPU intercepts this and subsequently tells the Analog board envelopes to trigger?

Either way, I'm interested in hearing if I've misinterpreted the bit above, that the test has nothing to do with Midi but rather, is a trigger to audio output timing which is subject to envelope speed and reaction time and also how tight quickly is the trigger logic sensing a gate on condition according to what voltage?
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akamruz
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by akamruz » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:41 am

Hi,

This timing problem is usually perceived when sequenced not played.

To sequence my synths as tightly synced as possible I use a hardware sequencer(sequentix cirklon) and this sequencer receives midi clock from a sample accurate midi clock generator(inner clock systems-cynq lock).When i sequence an all analog synth and trigger it with control voltages, the recorded material will be dead on time because ''midi note on response'' is not an issue.All the synths that can only be sequenced with midi has this midi note on response issue and this can only be improved from within the synth itself.

The issue is the '' midi note on response '' of voyager and why can it not be improved?

I use the midi in of my voyager for sequencing it and ,when sequenced at the same time with other gear with perfect or near perfect timing it can easily be heard that voyagers timing is sloppy.It gets worse when there are more sequences for parameter changes.For example Prophet 08 has a response time which is never more than 35 samples,which is around 0.7 ms in 44100 Hz.I find this acceptable because i can not hear the difference.On the other hand 3.69 or even 2 ms difference is very obvious to hear for some people.

If you can read my first post, i ve explained the way to test and see what i mean by sloppy.

Stephan,

I heard the difference than i did the test and now i am trying to find a solution.
Why is this bothering you?Who is it going to hurt if Moog finds a way to improve the midi note on response of voyager?
I am just trying to point out something that can be improved.You don't need to be radically conservative about this.

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... itmus.html

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... dware.html

Above are the links from the same website.Useful information.

triptolemos
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by triptolemos » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:29 pm

I always compensate for the timing of my Voyager PE; but I only use my ears to determine how to fit it in a track :)

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thealien666
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by thealien666 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:18 pm

A difference in audio sync of below 30-50 ms of two different audio signals, with a different content, is generally not perceived by the average listener (based on research done at Berkeley University 13 years ago). So I doubt very much that a timing difference of only 2-4 ms between say, a recorded snare and a kick sound on two separate tracks could be noticeable by anyone in a blind test, even when varied in real time. I've done it myself, and so has a good friend of mine, and we couldn't tell there was a lag until a difference of about 15-20 ms between the tracks, let alone 2 ms or even 3.69 ms ! And we're both drummers !

Not only that, but those two different sounds have to be of a percussive nature, with a sharp attack in order to be more noticeable. In that case, the attack time of the VCA envelope of the patch has to be taken into account also.

It is, however, much more detectable between two almost identical audio signals, both of content and angular phase, say from a digital or analog type delay. In that case, our brain can distinguish phase differences as low as 1 ms. It is then perceived as a flanging or phasing effect..

I think akamruz is just trolling. :roll:
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francesco
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Re: Voyager Midi timing feels a little out compared to LP2

Post by francesco » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:01 pm

Also I own a Voyager RME I am more a bass guitar player. In my experience it is tolerable to have a delay of about 10-15ms and below between playing a note and hearing the sound (this means about 3 to 5 m distance to your amp, if you have an all analog amplification chain) Of course one can compensate even larger delays on big stages by good playing skills, but a lower delay is more desiberable for playing right on the spot.
A delay of about 4ms, as mentioned for the voyager, should not be a problem for a player in a recording or a live situation as long as you dont have additional delays maybe from serial digital effects or a digital mixing desk (remember the old Yamaha 02r, horrible delay from input to output). In the end you can always move your recorded tracks along the time line some ms back or forward in order to have the desired effect on the groove of the recorded piece.
I also remember someone saying that it is an old trick in analog circuit design to delay the starting of the envelopes a little bit in order to achieve that "extra snappy" envelope sound. Can someone confirm this? Or is this a false information?
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