New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

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Headlands
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New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by Headlands » Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:19 am

Hi all, very excited about my new (used in mint condition, just over a year old) Matriarch, which I'm also incorporating with my modular setup.

Upon using it for the first time I noticed that the sub low end was not quite as "fat" as I was expecting.

I compared a raw saw wave (the wave directly out) from the Matriarch with totally plain saw waves from both my Juno 60 and a plain Moog saw wave sample (totally dry) in Omnisphere, both level-matched. On both of those the subs under around 70hz were around 5dB higher than the Matriarch, which would explain why it sounds less "fat" in the sub region. On the analyzer you can see that the saw wav levels off at around 70hz with the Matriarch. This happened after being on for over three hours, so it was very warmed up.

Is this simply the way the oscillators are sonically in the Matriarch, or is there some kind of adjustment somewhere that I might not be aware of? If there's no adjustment (I'm assuming there isn't) then one way to know if it's just the way the oscillators are is if one or some of you might be so kind as to record a raw (direct out from the wave) saw wave playing C2 from the Matriarch at 44.1 and attach here so I can compare (I will level match -- no need for a specific level). I know it's a lot to ask and isn't perfect, but I spent a lot of money on the Matriarch and I love it to bits so far, but this one thing is something I want to be sure about.

MaxFerency
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by MaxFerency » Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:45 pm

I would image that is in part how it is designed as a 4-voice synth. If all the voices are too fat on the low end it can get muddy very quickly if you are playing paraphonically. That said you can easily make the low end more fat by putting it in duo- or mono- phonic mode and then very slightly detuning the different osc (or adding other different modifications).
Max Ferency | http://maxferency.org | max [at] maxferency [dot] org
SYSTEM: macOS & Logic X Pro
GEAR: Matriarch, Sub 37, Korg SV-2, DFAM, MF Drive, MF Delay, MF Boost, Roland RC-202

Headlands
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by Headlands » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:02 pm

MaxFerency wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:45 pm I would image that is in part how it is designed as a 4-voice synth. If all the voices are too fat on the low end it can get muddy very quickly if you are playing paraphonically. That said you can easily make the low end more fat by putting it in duo- or mono- phonic mode and then very slightly detuning the different osc (or adding other different modifications).
Good point, yes.

Synth.builder
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by Synth.builder » Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:59 am

Headlands wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:19 amOn both of those the subs under around 70hz were around 5dB higher than the Matriarch, which would explain why it sounds less "fat" in the sub region. On the analyzer you can see that the saw wav levels off at around 70hz with the Matriarch.
I'm a little puzzled by your results. How have you compared the three instruments? Are you saying that the Matriarch's oscillator output is lower in volume when the fundamental frequency is below 70Hz compared to when the VCO is running at say 440Hz? That would indeed be unsettling and would indicate a fault.

I have just measured my Matriarch and the VCO output levels remain constant from very low frequencies (around 20Hz) to over 1kHz.

There doesn't appear to be significant bass roll off in the filter or VCA sections either until we get very low.

Headlands
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by Headlands » Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:08 pm

What I mean is that whatever note I'm playing, it's lower than other synths by around 5 dB starting at around 70 hz. But there are other considerations that I've been finding out about from other forums that are at play, so I don't think there's really an issue when it comes down to it.

One thing that IS an issue is the maddening reduction in high frequencies from the main and Euro outputs (less so in the Euro outs, but still there significantly) -- was that you on ModWigglers talking about the mod to fix it? Aside from what you outlined, I know there's nothing that can be done about it except for Moog to start making new ones with proper high end from the stereo outputs.

Synth.builder
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by Synth.builder » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:15 am

Headlands wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:08 pm What I mean is that whatever note I'm playing, it's lower than other synths by around 5 dB starting at around 70 hz.
It could be that some of the other instruments have some sort of bass boost. The Matriarch's bass should be pretty solid. One quick way to test this, just in case yours has a fault, is to look at the output on a spectrum analyser. Use the triangle wave from one oscillator, with the mixer set to half way on that oscillator only. Turn the resonance down and the filter cut off right up. Now with the keyboard set to -2 octaves, play up the keyboard and see if the output level of the lowest hump seen on the analyser increases significantly as the notes get higher. If it does you may have a fault.
One thing that IS an issue is the maddening reduction in high frequencies from the main and Euro outputs (less so in the Euro outs, but still there significantly) -- was that you on ModWigglers talking about the mod to fix it? Aside from what you outlined, I know there's nothing that can be done about it except for Moog to start making new ones with proper high end from the stereo outputs.
Yeah, that's me. The quick fix is to use the Eurorack outputs. You lose the volume control, and the balanced outputs, but it will be significantly brighter.

What we don't know was whether Moog intended it to behave like it does. There's a lot of people who like the sound of it as it is. And I didn't notice the high frequency cut until I had compared the eurorack output with the main output. The loss of gain when you turn up the cut off frequency was the worst for me.

It's a shame is such a pain to modify. Getting those boards out and dealing with weeny surface mount parts is not fun.
Last edited by Synth.builder on Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

jonmanness
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by jonmanness » Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:59 pm

I agree that the sub-range isn't really there on the Matriarch, but that's OK with me because if I need some rumbling sub bass I'll reach for the Softube's Model 84 Juno VST. That said, I do boost the sub-frequencies on the Matriarch with Little Labs VOG in my UA Apollo.

To me, the Matriarch is all about the mids.

MaxFerency
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by MaxFerency » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:32 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is if you want a good bass, don't put the filter in Series because that creates a Band Pass filter that cuts out the lows. (Which I'm not suggesting that's what's happening. Just a general thought about good basses on the Matriarch.)
Max Ferency | http://maxferency.org | max [at] maxferency [dot] org
SYSTEM: macOS & Logic X Pro
GEAR: Matriarch, Sub 37, Korg SV-2, DFAM, MF Drive, MF Delay, MF Boost, Roland RC-202

illiac
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Re: New Matriarch owner with an unusual request.

Post by illiac » Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:32 pm

Wonder how the sub response compares to the GM?

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