Matriarch - Clipping

[Francishunt]

Hi everyone,

This is my first Paraphonic synth and I'm loving the four voice mode.

When playing a chord I notice there is some clipping/overdrive happening - is this normal with analogue synthesisers?

The four OSCs are at 50% in the mixer so it doesn't seem I'm pushing things too hard.

Many thanks,
Francis

[Synth.builder]

When playing a chord I notice there is some clipping/overdrive happening - is this normal with analogue synthesisers?

Other analogue synths will be different. The Moog ladder filter is known for its rich overdriven sound, which is perfect for monophonic playing, not so good when the note intervals are wide. I've found that you need to have the VCO level controls set to around 30% or less to keep it clean on all four notes.

[Francishunt]

When playing a chord I notice there is some clipping/overdrive happening - is this normal with analogue synthesisers?

Other analogue synths will be different. The Moog ladder filter is known for its rich overdriven sound, which is perfect for monophonic playing, not so good when the note intervals are wide. I've found that you need to have the VCO level controls set to around 30% or less to keep it clean on all four notes.

Thanks Synth.builder - that sounds much better now

[calaverasgrande]

I know where the OP is coming from.
I own a couple other Moogs. A Taurus 3 and an MG1 (the Radio Shack version of an Opus/Rogue). I've also had a Minimoog on loan off and on from a good friend for years.
These are much cleaner sounding even with the oscs full on. Though overall the older synths have a dirtier character. There is never an impression of 'oh distortion'. It's more that they sound full or fat. The Taurus especially never sounds even slightly overdriven. The timbre is compressed or kind of sounding hard limited. Like it's hitting an 1176.
The Grandmother is a bit more over the top with the fizzy distortion. I find I really have to gain stage the synth to keep it from sounding like a Marshall stack!
I'd rather that the distortion character was on a knob, than being built in to the architecture. I bought this for the patchability. Not for some bass monster one trick pony.

[Markyboard]

When playing a chord I notice there is some clipping/overdrive happening - is this normal with analogue synthesisers?

Other analogue synths will be different. The Moog ladder filter is known for its rich overdriven sound, which is perfect for monophonic playing, not so good when the note intervals are wide. I've found that you need to have the VCO level controls set to around 30% or less to keep it clean on all four notes.

Hi-

30% seems rather conservative to me. With all 4 oscillators I don't see any clipping until each is set to slightly greater than 12 o'clock. Less than 4 osc the pre-clip levels can obviously be higher. I'm looking at this on a scope at one of the Euro outputs with all 4 osc set to sawtooth and all 4 synced. The clipping begins at the bottom of the ramp.

Not directed at you or anyone in particular: It's 4 F'n oscillators - you don't have to use them all. Of course if you don't like the sound at any level you're screwed.

[Synth.builder]

The Matriarch has three circuit blocks that could introduce distortion. The mixer produces hard clipping. On a scope you'll see the waveform develop obvious straight edges at the top and bottom. It's asymmetrical so one side will clip before the other. The filter has symmetrical clipping and this will be softer in nature, so won't have the hard edges the mixer creates. I think it is this the original poster is commenting on. When playing chords in paraphonic mode the filter will start to overdrive if the cut-off frequency is turned down, and the resonance low, well before the mixer does it's thing. The filter is reasonably clean at high cut-offs.

It's quite difficult to sometimes see filter clipping on a scope. At lower cut-offs the output waveform is now sufficiently smooth to mask any of the non linearities heard. But it is audible when you play a chord which suggests what we are hearing is intermodulation distortion. This type of distortion can really fatten up a sound if the input signal has notes of similar frequency (or octaves), but becomes dissonant with complex intervals like chords.

The third section is the VCA. I don't think the Matriarch's VCA adds too much non linearity compared with the two preceding sections. I think I'll have a play today and see what it does actually do. I would guess it would be similar to that created by the filter at high cut-off frequencies.

[Markyboard]

Very interesting and informative - thanks! I was experimenting mostly in mono as it's easier to get sync on the scope. But what you've stated makes sense. I did play with different filter cutoff frequencies and observed various "artifacts" but didn't associate them with clipping. And yes to the scope not being the best for evaluating this.

Thanks again for your insignts SB!

[Francishunt]

I know where the OP is coming from.
I own a couple other Moogs. A Taurus 3 and an MG1 (the Radio Shack version of an Opus/Rogue). I've also had a Minimoog on loan off and on from a good friend for years.
These are much cleaner sounding even with the oscs full on. Though overall the older synths have a dirtier character. There is never an impression of 'oh distortion'. It's more that they sound full or fat. The Taurus especially never sounds even slightly overdriven. The timbre is compressed or kind of sounding hard limited. Like it's hitting an 1176.
The Grandmother is a bit more over the top with the fizzy distortion. I find I really have to gain stage the synth to keep it from sounding like a Marshall stack!
I'd rather that the distortion character was on a knob, than being built in to the architecture. I bought this for the patchability. Not for some bass monster one trick pony.

Hi calaverasgrande,

A ‘Marshall Stack’ is exactly how I would describe it - as the notes ‘beat’ in and out of each other there is a very distinct overdrive/distortion effect at the top end of the chords. It does sound guitar-like which is great - but not exactly what I want all the time.

I wonder if there is a way to improve this as I also struggle to keep this under control - 30%/9 o’clock is the sweet spot where everything sounds clean and smooth.

[Francishunt]

The Matriarch has three circuit blocks that could introduce distortion. The mixer produces hard clipping. On a scope you'll see the waveform develop obvious straight edges at the top and bottom. It's asymmetrical so one side will clip before the other. The filter has symmetrical clipping and this will be softer in nature, so won't have the hard edges the mixer creates. I think it is this the original poster is commenting on. When playing chords in paraphonic mode the filter will start to overdrive if the cut-off frequency is turned down, and the resonance low, well before the mixer does it's thing. The filter is reasonably clean at high cut-offs.

It's quite difficult to sometimes see filter clipping on a scope. At lower cut-offs the output waveform is now sufficiently smooth to mask any of the non linearities heard. But it is audible when you play a chord which suggests what we are hearing is intermodulation distortion. This type of distortion can really fatten up a sound if the input signal has notes of similar frequency (or octaves), but becomes dissonant with complex intervals like chords.

The third section is the VCA. I don't think the Matriarch's VCA adds too much non linearity compared with the two preceding sections. I think I'll have a play today and see what it does actually do. I would guess it would be similar to that created by the filter at high cut-off frequencies.

Thanks Synth Builder - I’ll try those filter tweaks and see if this improves it - lots to learn here...

[calaverasgrande]

I know this is about the Matriarch and I have a Grandmother, but I think they are comparable.
I find I still struggle with gain staging things besides the OSCs. The filter seems to need help to open fully. Yet the envelope seems to need attenuation when doing the classic hard sync patch with one OSC enveloped?
Good thing I have a few cases of Eurorack with attenuverters in them.