Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Mother-32, DFAM, Subharmonicon, Grandmother, Matriarch
chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:29 pm

Bump. Seriously, come on Moog.

chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:44 am

Alright, I managed to get the support on the phone.
It's been quite interesting.
At first, I want to correct a wrong info that can be found in this topic : this behaviour was not introduced with 1.1.0. It tested it, so did the techs at Moog. I assume it's always been so. (Or was there a prior firmware ?).

Also I wanted to share some interesting tests that I made with my paraphonic synths. They all appear to have their own "philosophy". Here are my conclusions :

- Arturia microfreak :
it's actually just one filter, BUT 4 amplitude envelopes. It does allow staccato mode (if the envelope is set up properly, with no attack and no release).

- Korg Mono/Poly :
it's got 2 "trigger" modes :
"Single" would trigger the envelope once end stays at the sustain level
"multiple" would retrigger the envelope for each note.
But in any case, any subsequent note will remain held as long as the first one is held. It doesn't allow staccato notes.

- Korg Delta :
A "gate" is applied to each new note. It seems to have some ramp time before the rise and after the fall. so it's more like a very short ASR applied to each note. It allows more or less staccato notes.

- Matriarch :
A "gate" is applied to each note. There is some sort of ASR applied to the gate, but there is a delay after the sustain. So it's more like a "ASDelR" enveloppe. It doesn't allow staccato notes.

So, all in all,

I don't know if this "delay" applied to the gate has a digital/software origin, but I'd love to be able to avoid it, or at least reduce it to the maximum (I'm aware that a short envelope must be applied to avoid clicks). Maybe it could be a "globals" setting, so we could choose "nervous" or "smooth" staccato ?

Synth.builder
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:16 am
Location: Cumbria, UK
Contact:

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by Synth.builder » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:05 am

chapelier fou wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:44 amI assume it's always been so.
We may be discussing different things but the time lag on note release in paraphonic mode was not present in firmware 1.1.0. Notes are heard as they are played in 1.1.0. It was only in 1.2.x that the problem is present.

Each of the four Matriarch VCOs have their own VCA. This is controlled with a gate like control signal that simply turns each VCO on and off. The main envelopes are not affected by this problem. What seems to be happening is that the individual control signals to the oscillator VCAs stay high for a little too long after the note is no longer being played.

chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:32 pm

I'll check version 1.1.0. I was almost sure I did.
Anyway, you're right about your description of the issue. It's so annoying.

chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:49 pm

Damn, I don't know what happened last time when I tried 1.1.0 for comparison... but yeah, Paraphonic mode IS working properly in 1.1.0 !!!
It's definitely a firmware issue that NEEDS to be fixed !

Matthew Ashmore
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:30 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by Matthew Ashmore » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:06 pm

It's a new year and 2022 seems like a wonderful year to iron out any final matriarch bugs. What say you Moog? lets do dis!

any plans for more updates of any kind or is the matriarch in its final form? Not a huge deal at all. but some kind of state of the union on further matriarch plans if any would be aces.

Synth.builder
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 4:16 am
Location: Cumbria, UK
Contact:

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by Synth.builder » Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:45 am

Matthew Ashmore wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:06 pm... but some kind of state of the union on further matriarch plans if any would be aces.
I don't think anyone from Moog visits here that often. It's best if you want something in particular to be looked at to contact Moog directly via their support page. The more people that request that something needs to be fixed the more likely they are to fix it.

0nemogin
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:08 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by 0nemogin » Mon May 30, 2022 2:52 pm

Have to say it's criminal that moog still haven't addressed this issue.

chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Tue May 31, 2022 3:31 am

0nemogin wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:52 pm Have to say it's criminal that moog still haven't addressed this issue.
Isn't it ? I can understand that they don't give a f"ck of people like you and me, but how comes that the influencers (you know, people that count) don't talk about this ? Or 'real famous artists' if such a thing exists. Anyway, shame on you Moog.

chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:59 am

pointless bump.
Please someone in the US call them by phone(as it's the only way to reach support). I did twice, it cost me like 30€ and they were so arrogant.

mcmorrise
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by mcmorrise » Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:25 pm

Just got off the phone with Adam at Moog Music. I had to get ungrounded PSUs and am having trouble with what seems to be the same gate issue, so I'm sending him a video of the problem and a link to this thread.

Hi, Adam! I hope we get more Moog reps reading the forum. :wink:

chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:40 am

Fingers crossed. Hard.

mcmorrise
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:46 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by mcmorrise » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:06 pm

mcmorrise wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:25 pm I'm sending him a video of the problem and a link to this thread.
I'm filming my video now. In the interest of being scientific, I decided to measure the internal gate lag. Assuming normal gate operation has near-instantaneous release — ±5ms or so, similar to the main VCA attack and release — we should be able to assess how long the lag is.

I sent MIDI notes from Logic: a 5-second C1 and C2, with two one-second holds on C4 and E4 every other second. I recorded Matriarch's output and analyzed it in iZotope RX. I zoomed in carefully to get as close to the actual notes as possible, but consider human margin of error at ±1ms for my numbers.
matriarch gate problem.jpg
You'll notice that my selection is 1.128 seconds long. Yes, internal gate releases have 128 milliseconds of lag. Even if they're not instantaneous, they should be at most 5 ms, the same as the VCA, no?

I've provided a wav and midi (120 bpm) in a zipped folder if you want to replicate this experiment or analyze my file yourself, if you have better metering tools. I think Logic may have compensated for latency since the onset of the first note appears just before 1s.
Attachments
Matriarch gate test.zip
(854.56 KiB) Downloaded 130 times

chapelier fou
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by chapelier fou » Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:55 am

Thanks for doing this !

voyager0500
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:56 am
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Matriarch - staccato playing in paraphonic modes

Post by voyager0500 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:21 am

I really hope they're working on an update for this as it's been almost 2 years since the last one. There are quite a few bugs that need to be ironed out.
'i used to be a plastic cup..'
-remarkable-

Post Reply