Little Sequence Demo

System 55 • System 35 • Model 15
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analogmonster
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Little Sequence Demo

Post by analogmonster » Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:35 am

...playing with a subset of two modulars, the System 55 and the Formant...

title.JPG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9tOcqybLsU

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VCO
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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:33 am

Did you build that other modular as well as your moog 55 clone?

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:41 am

I went to SoundCloud and listened to some of your music. It sounded like you were using a polyphonic synth on some of those tracks. You must have other synths that aren’t modular?

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by analogmonster » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:05 am

VCO wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:33 am Did you build that other modular as well as your moog 55 clone?
Yes, I did. That one (with the white panels) is a Formant MSS2000 Modular System, and it was the first modular I built. The basic concept was developed by a friend of mine, but I added some own developments like the Single Chip Reverb effect module or the 8 voice MIDI to CV / Gate module UCVM, which enables my modular being played in polyphonic mode.
VCO wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:41 am I went to SoundCloud and listened to some of your music. It sounded like you were using a polyphonic synth on some of those tracks. You must have other synths that aren’t modular?
Well, being modular does not mean being monophonic in every case. I know, a lot of people think so, but I did not want to accept this as a natural law, so I thought about a polyphonic modular solution, and I developed the UCVM. With this module you can play a modular as an 8 voice polyphonic instrument, provided you have enough modules for that :mrgreen:

I made a short polyphonic demo video of a 3 voice setup of my Formant:
UCVM.JPG
By the way, the polyphonic intro I use for all of my videos is done by my Formant as well.

I have some other polyphonic keyboards as well, a Solina String Ensemble for instance, an Elka Ek22 and a Yamaha keyboard, and they sound good, but the sounds are all predefined, and the real fun is creating new sounds with a modular, so I prefer that.

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:29 am

That’s cool I never knew you could have a polyphonic modular , I just always assumed that a modular had to be monophonic. That sequential pro3 I have is paraphonic. Would it be possible to make a modular with memory?
That pro3 let’s you choose the source and the destination of how you want to control certain parameters and assign them to each other just by selecting them. And then it routes what you selected. Almost like patch chords but you can do it simply by selection. I really like that solina string ensemble. Pink Floyd used them. They have that cool phase shifter
Effect. They never sounded like real strings but created a whole sound unto itself. I once had a polymoog keyboard not the synthesizer one which was a lot more hip and desired. Do you have any semi Modular’s? The one good thing about the piano is that it’s polyphonic and you don’t have to concern yourself with the limitations of a monophonic instrument.
I think the string sounds on most sample based keyboards sound very good, much better than my old polymoog did.
That polymoog had a ribbon which if I remember correctly would let you slide the chord you played. That polymoog was probably from 1975. I have some kurzweil k2000RS that I can load real violin samples from the mirslov sample library.
They sounded like a chamber ensemble. I’m sure nowadays they have sample library’s that are phenomenal. Stand-alone samplers got replaced with computers since they have such large hardrives and could easily have massive sample library’s. My kurzweil samplers only had 64 megs of ram each. I would loop my samples. Nowadays they don’t even have to loop samples anymore because of how large your samples can be. I’m sure thier sample rates are very high. I heard that the udo super 6 I think that’s what it’s called uses digtal oscillators that were sampled at very high sample rates. When I sampled I sampled at 48k in stereo. It’s so different now because of how powerful computers and DSP is. It’s amazing all the innovations they have made in technology and have circuit modeling technology they use in synths. The software synths sound great too. I guess I’m old fashioned though I just like analog subtractive synthisis.
There’s so many different types of synthisis today. That pro3 I have is a hybrid. It has one digtal wavetable oscillator and the other two are VCOs. It’s cool because it can sound vintage analog like a moog but also futuristic as well. It has a really advanced sequencer and stereo effects. That’s really impressive that you build your own Modular’s.
Auf Wiedersehen

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:55 am

I would think that it would be hard to keep that modular in tune with 8 voices. I read thats why they started using DCOs in polyphonic synths. I didn’t realize that DCOs were analog , they just have that digital clock if I remember right. I’m not technical. The explanation I read was pretty deep and way over my head.. my voyager drifts but I can get away with it since it’s monophonic if it were polyphonic and it drifted the way it did it would be a problem. That’s where sampling has an edge since it stays in tune. Sampling tunicates the values since it stores it as a binary value and alters the harmonic series because it rounds up or down. That’s why acoustic instruments sound warmer as well as analog synths. Both have thier own pros and cons. Interesting how a little bit ofdifference in pitch between two oscillators can make it sound alive. I just prefer things in tune. It becomes even more imperative when you play polychords like in jazz since intervals can consist of so many different altered harmonies. Dense chord voicings are very unforgiving . I sometimes employ 8 note voicings so it’s crucial.

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by analogmonster » Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:05 am

VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:29 am That’s cool I never knew you could have a polyphonic modular , I just always assumed that a modular had to be monophonic.
In most cases they are monophonic indeed. But in the end the MIDI2CVGATE interface decides about it. If you set 8 monophonic synths in parallel and control them with a CVGATE - channel each you have a polyphonic instrument. You "just" need enough envelopes, VCAs, oscillators etc.
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:29 am That sequential pro3 I have is paraphonic. Would it be possible to make a modular with memory?
I developed a concept for that with my 3rd modular, the Analogmonster µNet synthesizer. That is a concept for a polyphonic analog modular with electronic patches / modulation bus and memory to store patches. The first two modules worked, but I stopped the project due to private issues.
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:29 am ... I once had a polymoog keyboard not the synthesizer one which was a lot more hip and desired. Do you have any semi Modular’s?
I had my hands on a Farfisa Synth Orchestra to repair it. A full polyphonic divider based organ part and a classic monophonic subtractive synthesizer part. I like this concept of those combo instruments.
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:29 am ... That’s really impressive that you build your own Modular’s.
Auf Wiedersehen
Thanks, I admit that I always wanted to look "under the skirt" of this technology :mrgreen:
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:55 am I would think that it would be hard to keep that modular in tune with 8 voices. I read thats why they started using DCOs in polyphonic synths. I didn’t realize that DCOs were analog , they just have that digital clock if I remember right...
DC just means "Digitally Controlled", the oscillator might be analog or digital. Being "In Tune" is good, but beware of being phase coupled, that sounds sterile and thin.

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:03 pm

Your very technical minded. I wish I was. I saw a utube demo on sonic state that showed the moog system 55 modular reissue. It costs $35,000. They also reissued the moog system 35 modular as well in addition to the model 10 and model15 modular.and some other Modular’s like the Keith Emerson moog modular for $150,000 dollars. My friend who plays drums and lives in LA played drums for Keith Emerson before he passed. It seems practical and less expensive that
You know how to build those Modular’s yourself. I’ve seen the sysnthisizer.com Modular’s that copy the 5U moog Modular’s and thier less expensive than moog although it’s still expensive. I guess it would be cheaper to play a hohner
10 hole diatonic harmonica. Another great German instrument maker. I was listening to Beethovens 5th symphony the other day. I love Bach and Beethoven. Wonder what they would think of modular synths if they were living in the 21st century. Synths aren’t as old as the piano though. It took awhile for the modern piano to develop. In regards to DCOs
I didn’t realize that thier were digitally controlled digtal oscillators. I guess they use microprocessors to control alot of applications not just to keep analog polysynths in tune. I guess the theremin uses a beat oscillator design from some things I’ve seen on utube. I considered getting a moog etherwave theremin although abandoned the idea considering how difficult they are to play. I was going to just use it as a controller for my voyager. I decided that I would rather save the money for a dedicated analog polysynth like the OBX8

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by analogmonster » Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:57 am

VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:03 pm Your very technical minded. I wish I was.
I am indeed. I work as an architect in IT projects. My world consists of "If-Then-Else" relationships. And I wish I could play the piano :(
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:03 pm I saw a utube demo on sonic state that showed the moog system 55 modular reissue. It costs $35,000. They also reissued the moog system 35 modular as well in addition to the model 10 and model15 modular.and some other Modular’s like the Keith Emerson moog modular for $150,000 dollars.
And these mad amounts of money are the reason why I started this weird project of cloning the Moog System 55. I wanted to have one since I was a child, seeing my hero Isao Tomita on a CD booklet, SURROUNDED by his IIIP setup. Another benefit is that I don't have to wait for the reissue of modules, as Moog probably never will sell dedicated modules alone. I just build them myself. I can wallpaper complete houses with cloned Moog modules if I want, until my children send me to a lunatic asylum.
I consider this behavior of Moog as nonsense, as there is a market for Moog modules, and people leave the brand if they want to buy more modules. It's Moogs own fault.
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:03 pm My friend who plays drums and lives in LA played drums for Keith Emerson before he passed.
Oh, I would love to talk to him. It must have been exciting times on stage, especially with this huge impressive analog monster :D
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:03 pm It seems practical and less expensive that
You know how to build those Modular’s yourself.
Yes it is. And reverse engineering the modules from old circuit diagrams was a joy in most cases, sometimes a pain in the ass when detecting errors in the circuit drawings, but at the end all cloned modules worked perfectly. I could prove my knowledge in repairing an original Moog module sent to me by an english music producer who is owner of an old System 35: http://www.analog-monster.de/repair_904B_en.html
VCO wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:03 pm ... I decided that I would rather save the money for a dedicated analog polysynth like the OBX8
Oberheim is also a good choice. I considered to clone the Oberheim 8-voice, but the technology behind is the same as my Formant, so I skipped it. If I'd need more voices, I would expand my Formant instead.

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:42 am

My background is in jazz composition and theory and performance. Jazz will make you poor , desolate and dysfunctional. And crazy. What’s the difference between a large pizza and a jazz musician ? A large pizza can feed a family of four.
You should get your kids to solder for you so you can make some more of those modules that way they can can help earn there keep while thier crazy madman genius father expands his monster moog modular system 55 clone. LOL
Keep up the good work Doctor Frankenstein ! I expect great things from you .

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by analogmonster » Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:04 am

Thank you very much :D :D :D

Sometimes it is indeed like being in Frankenstein's Lab :lol: and sometimes I am not sure whether my beast is alive or not. That is why I've chosen the Evil Scientist of Looney Tunes as my avatar.

And yes, I let my family wind inductors for my T914 Fixed Filter Bank Clone until they complained that slavery has been disestablished ages ago :mrgreen:

I know some artists, and they have definitely less money than me, but my bleeding heart *NOT* being a composer and a musician lets me ask myself, who is more honest to himself, the artist or the IT prostitute who sells his soul for implementing technological swinishness in IT projects for money :?

Anyway, my discussion with you inspired me to continue developing and cloning modules for my modulars :idea:

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:20 pm

Necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps you could start your own buisness selling those modules you make for yourself and others . I don’t know what’s involved but maybe you could offer better quality better functionality at a lower cost than others. Sometimes it’s not necessary to invent the wheel but to make the wheel better and more attainable for others. I know it’s a small cottage industry that makes modular equipment but perhaps you might be able offer something the big dogs have overlooked since thier focus is different. After all Robert Moog started his company offering theremins and look where moog is to today. You seem to have the passion for the mission.
And you can easily implement your family as slave labor thier probably immune to this form of exploitation already LOL Take care Auf Wiedersehen

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by analogmonster » Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:38 am

VCO wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:20 pm Necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps you could start your own buisness selling those modules you make for yourself and others .
Well, I floated some trial balloons, see my shop, but these offers are for the target group of electronic engineers who build their own modules. And selling complete cloned Moog modules might be considered at least as juristically dubious :lol:
VCO wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:20 pm I don’t know what’s involved but maybe you could offer better quality better functionality at a lower cost than others. Sometimes it’s not necessary to invent the wheel but to make the wheel better and more attainable for others. I know it’s a small cottage industry that makes modular equipment but perhaps you might be able offer something the big dogs have overlooked since thier focus is different.
Definitely :evil: At least developing new modules and selling them together with the old ones. I don't understand why Moog isn't interested in that. I am quite sure that a lot of fans and musicians would buy customizable modular systems and dedicated modules. They still have the magic branding.
VCO wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:20 pm After all Robert Moog started his company offering theremins and look where moog is to today. You seem to have the passion for the mission.
But not the time :(
VCO wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:20 pm And you can easily implement your family as slave labor thier probably immune to this form of exploitation already LOL Take care Auf Wiedersehen
:D Oh yeah, I will tell them greetings from you and forward this proposal from you to them :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:26 pm

I think the reason moog doesn’t sell thier modules separately is because they want to sell thier complete modular systems to people. It makes them a lot more money I would think. Some of those modular systems rival the cost of some grand pianos. The Keith Emerson Moog Modular is close to the price of a Steinway model D which I think goes for around
$175,000 dollars. Grand pianos and Moog Modular’s would be manufactured in small numbers and have a very small market. I use to sell grand pianos back in the day and they were hard to move. Mostly music schools, studios, orchestras and affluent people purchased them. The grand piano market has been diminishing for years in the USA. I would think in some ways modular would be just as bad. Although in Europe there does seem to be an interest in electronica and EDM
Music so maybe eurorack would still do alright. I would think the 5 U Modular’s would have more of a niche market. The most expensive instrument I’ve ever purchased was my august forester grand model 190 6 ft 4 inches. It’s 42 years old and I bought it new for $15000 dollars and today that same model new is like 55,000 dollars . I would never be able to afford something like that now. I have champagne tastes but a beer budget. LOL take care and tell your family
aufmerksamkeit Schnell Arbbeit. Take care.

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Re: Little Sequence Demo

Post by VCO » Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:41 pm

Do you belong to the mod wiggler forum? I cant remember if you did. If you don’t possibly that would be a good place to advertise your modules. I went and looked at your workshop. It’s cool but way over my head LOL. I’m just a jazz piano player that has a moog voyager.

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