Spring reverb recommendations?

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Charlie Labs
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:04 am

Markyboard wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:41 am Hi Charlie-

I have the same Radial Reamp that I use for my MF-105 phaser fed from my mixer effects send at 4dB. Everything you describe makes sense and the Reamp should do exactly what you want. What is the signal strength/ range of the System 10 output?

Doesn’t make sense and I am perplexed.
Hi Markyboard,

I'm learning as I go here so bear with me!

First to answer your question "What is the signal strength/range of the system 10 output."
I don't know/understand yet. I'm trying to learn how to measure that, as well as figure all this other stuff out! =)

As per the Model 10 manual addendum regarding the mixer section:
Output impedance: 100 ohms
Gain: x2 at maximum output level setting.

I believe this only relates to the mixer and doesn't consider modules before or after it in the signal chain. I am using the mixer as an audio mixer and going from that out of the synth via a trunk line (pass through).


What I do know so far:
1. My Soundcraft EPM 12 mixer line in can handle +30db. I have no issue at any signal/volume level going directly from the Model 10 to this mixer. I think its safe to say that I am under the +30db level. (which I a lot!)

2. When I introduce the Radial EXTC-SA inline between the Model 10 and the mixer I get all sorts of cracks/pops/distortion. The EXTC's input can handle up to +11db so I am over that number for sure.

Examples when using the Radial:
If I have the Model 10's 4 channels at 10, anything above 3 on the master mixer creates problems.
If I have the Model 10's 4 channels at 5 and the master at 5, raising anything higher creates the same problems.


As per my conversation with Radial tech support:

"Modular synthesizers such as the Model 10 generally operate at a modular level output level, which is nominally around 5V. Modular signal level is a usually a higher signal level than that of Professional +4dB line level signals, which usually operate nominally at around 3V peak to peak. The reason you could be experiencing this pop noise is due to the inputs of the EXTC-SA being overloaded by the excess amounts of signal level, which then causes distortion to occur in the form of popping." also "the popping could simply be due to transients from the synth that overload the input briefly, which then causes the popping to occur."


I just picked up a Radial SAT-2 attenuator which should do the trick. It has a maximum input of +26db, its passive, transparent, and has a dim function (insert joke here) so I can run regular and loud patches and just hit a button.

I'm still messing around with just 1 or 2 components but I'm going to be hooking up the Zr. Z. spring reverb and try adding my Teac reel to reel to the mix via the EXTC.

Sorry for the long post but that's where I'm at.

Markyboard
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Markyboard » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:12 am

Hey Charlie- I love this topic as I’m always investigating these signal characteristics of all kinds of equipment. And I too am always learning something new.

“When I introduce the Radial EXTC-SA inline between the Model 10 and the mixer I get all sorts of cracks/pops/distortion”

To clarify you’ve taken the DrZ reverb out of the picture here and you’re connecting the SEND output of the EXTC-SA to an input channel of the Soundcraft mixer? Or are you connecting the main XLR output of the EXTC to an input channel?


“The EXTC's input can handle up to +11db so I am over that number for sure.
Where did you get this from? Per the spec the input can handle max of 26dBu.

Charlie Labs
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:51 am

Markyboard wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:12 am Hey Charlie- I love this topic as I’m always investigating these signal characteristics of all kinds of equipment. And I too am always learning something new.
Yeah me too, never to late to learn =)

Markyboard wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:12 am “When I introduce the Radial EXTC-SA inline between the Model 10 and the mixer I get all sorts of cracks/pops/distortion”

To clarify you’ve taken the DrZ reverb out of the picture here and you’re connecting the SEND output of the EXTC-SA to an input channel of the Soundcraft mixer? Or are you connecting the main XLR output of the EXTC to an input channel?
The Dr. Z. is not in the signal chain at all. I am not using any sends or returns, just plugging the model 10 into the EXTC's input and plugging the EXTC's output into my mixer. Both cables are 1/4" unbalanced. I'm just passing audio through the unit, not using either of its effects loops. The power coming from the wall is fine and I even swapped cables a few times to make sure I didn't have a bum cable. (note to self, buy cable tester! =) I think that covers all bases!

Markyboard wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:12 am “The EXTC's input can handle up to +11db so I am over that number for sure.
Where did you get this from? Per the spec the input can handle max of 26dBu.

The +11db number is under the specifications tab of the EXTC on their website, also one of their techs mentioned the same thing in an email. "the EXTC’s maximum input level sits at around +11dBu".

I'm not sure why the user guide says maximum input +26dbu dry, +20dbu wet. Shouldn't max input be listed under the line level I/O section?

I'm trying by best to understand all of this lol, my band thinks I'm nuts, "Just use the guitar pedals" they say, but what fun would that be? Besides, when they hear the real thing they say "Oh wow that sounds so much better".

Markyboard
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Markyboard » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:02 am

ARGGGGG! Ok, I’m going on a mild rant here but I also think I have the answer to your issue.

Reading manufacturers specs is always an adventure, and more often than not just total BS. Why? Because they often specify numbers to look good ( better than the competition) and offer little explanation as to what they mean. This is especially true in the Hi- FI world but these days even so called “pro” equipment does this.

Take input level for example. Even Radial can’t keep it straight between their user manual and their web page. 26dB? 11dB? At what gain setting? They don’t say. The send knob varies the gain between -3dB and 14dB. So at -3dB you can apply a 26 dB signal. At max gain of 14dB you an only apply 11dB ( 14+11) . The numbers don't work out exact but there are other variables and limits at play. The max input also depends on the receive and blend settings, so you can see where this gets really confusing. I wish they would standardize how they spec these numbers. But oh well, you just have to understand how this stuff works. Rant over.

The EXTC is a reamp for effects pedals and such. The “reamping” takes place in the effects loop. The Input and output are both at +4dBu so that’s not doing anything just using those. To bring that monstrous signal level down to wimpy guitar levels :) connect the send to your DrZ or even your audio mixer so you can see what it’s doing. Then use the send knob to adjust level accordingly.

The XLR output is used to bring the effect blended with the dry


input back to your audio mixer at 4dBu. But you shouldn’t need this with the DrZ.

Btw I also have the Radial X-amp which is a more conventional re-amper device . It has just an input and 2 outputs reflecting the reduced signal level. This is where the confusion may have come from.

Hope that helps.

Edit: One more btw- the Sys 10 output may still be too much in which case you’ll have to reduce its output.into the EXTC.
Last edited by Markyboard on Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ummagumma
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:01 am

Charlie, are you still trying to keep the model 10 output at full volume?

I think most gear would have a tough time with that. If you just drop it down you probably don't need any of that other stuff.

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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:53 pm

[/quote]
Markyboard wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:02 am
Take input level for example. Even Radial can’t keep it straight between their user manual and their web page. 26dB? 11dB? At what gain setting? They don’t say. The send knob varies the gain between -3dB and 14dB. So at -3dB you can apply a 26 dB signal. At max gain of 14dB you an only apply 11dB ( 14+11) . The numbers don't work out exact but there are other variables and limits at play. The max input also depends on the receive and blend settings, so you can see where this gets really confusing. I wish they would standardize how they spec these numbers. But oh well, you just have to understand how this stuff works. Rant over
I was beginning to think it was just me that found some of these things odd/confusing! Thanks for the explanation. I thank you and the others more electronically savvy than me for the help!
ummagumma wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:01 am
Charlie, are you still trying to keep the model 10 output at full volume?
No, this was just for the patch I had going when I first started adding other equipment into the chain, I realize I'm pushing stuff beyond it's limits, in fact I'm glad it all happened the way it did because now I'm learning about my equipment in a more detailed way. I don't plan on going near max volume too often!
ummagumma wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:01 am
I think most gear would have a tough time with that. If you just drop it down you probably don't need any of that other stuff.
Agreed!

Markyboard
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Markyboard » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:52 pm

Anxiously awaiting to hear the results of using the send output of the EXTC.

Charlie Labs
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:48 pm

Markyboard wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:52 pm Anxiously awaiting to hear the results of using the send output of the EXTC.
I'm sorry I must have missed the question!! Did you want me to use the send out as a main out of the unit into the mixer or just use the send out into the spring reverb as is intended?

Markyboard
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Markyboard » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:15 pm

Apologies for not being clear. You must use the effect send out of the EXTC Reamp in order to attenuate (reduce) the signal level at its input. This is intended to be connected to the input of an effects pedal or in your case the DrZ Reverb unit.

You may want to read the paragraph after my “rant” in my long reply.

Charlie Labs
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:09 pm

Markyboard wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:15 pm
Apologies for not being clear. You must use the effect send out of the EXTC Reamp in order to attenuate (reduce) the signal level at its input. This is intended to be connected to the input of an effects pedal or in your case the DrZ Reverb unit.
Yes, I know that much. =) The effects loops are working great for me now, Thanks! I just have to learn how much signal the Z-Verb likes, when push it, and when to dial it back.

Exceeding the EXTC's max input was my main problem, the SAT2 fixed that.

In other news, the Gamechanger Audio Light Pedal should be arriving soon, cant wait to a/b that with the Dr. Z.!

Markyboard
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Markyboard » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:39 am

Ah - very good to hear that's working Charlie. I never considered running these high level type signals (Eurorack in my case) directly to anything other then euro compatible modules or a mixer input. Still good to know the upper input limit of that EXTC reamper.

EricK
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by EricK » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:36 pm

Charlie,
With regard to the VSR 3, this is the demo that sold it for me. You probably saw this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUrKlcm0XRE

It has very limited tone controls, and got pretty expensive there for awhile on the second hand market. I haven't tried their tube based reverb but that is probably going to be better, but it's way expensive.

I got mine used from the BST thread on ModWigglers, for a normal price. It's not bad, better than the 301 in terms of sound quality, but probably a little better than some standard amp reverbs out there in a 1u rack space. It's worth looking into.
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
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Charlie Labs
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:54 am

Hey Eric,

I hadn't seen that video but thanks for sharing it, it sounds great. I'm in the process of trying to find a dealer close to me that has the both the VSR and the ReTubeVerb so I can go check them out and I still need to figure out what my ears like better, tube or not.

Thanks again!

901tastic
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by 901tastic » Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:13 am

Charlie Labs wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:41 pm
EricK wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:08 pm Also, the Vermona VSR 3 spring reverb, if you can find one cheap. Synth-Werk has a reverb module that is also worthy of consideration.
Hi Eric, you mentioned the Vermona VSR 3 (I'm taking a look at that as well as their ReTubeVerb), any thoughts on it?

I'm also looking at the Demeter RV-1D. If anyone here has used the Vermona or Demeter reverbs, i'd love to hear about it.


Thanks!

I use a Vermona VSR 3 with my Moog Model 10. It sounds great and I think they compliment each other nicely.

I find the tone control on the VSR 3 particularly useful.

Charlie Labs
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Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:59 am

Hi 901tastic,

That's great to hear, thanks for sharing! I'm still searching for a place near me (New York) that has them.

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