Spring reverb recommendations?

System 55 • System 35 • Model 15
Charlie Labs
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:29 am

I just started testing out the Dr. Z Z-verb.

I ran into it direct from the model 10 and as I turned the Zverbs mix up to 10-20% the volume dropped by half if not more. Once I hooked up the Radial EXTC-SA1 Reamp box things got better, but then I noticed a kind of sympathetic/harmonic resonance when I set the Z-Verb Dwell past 9 o'clock and I played the G5 key. I wasn't pushing any signal too hard.(all radial knobs and Moog mixer knobs set to 12 o'clock, sawtooth waveform).

Unless its operator error it seems I may be 0-2 on this so far. I know I'm using these units for things they wasn't exactly designed for so I can not fault them.

User avatar
ummagumma
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:39 am

Yes the mix level can have a dramatic effect on the volume. I wonder if Keith Emerson's reverb mod was due to this? AFAIK he had his reverb changed so it blended the verb in with the original signal, rather than sweeping between them?

I have not tried messing with the hardware

You may try some EQ or filtering before the reverb, to cut down any blooming? I just run signal out of a 5u mixer & haven't had any issues, although granted I don't do anything extreme with it.

Charlie Labs
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:08 am

When I plug the Model 10 directly into my Soundcraft EPM12 mixer, I can max out the modulars mixer section with no issues. 4 Saws into the M10's mixer with everything at 10, master set to 10. I even turned up the vca fixed control voltage to add more nastiness/balls. I patched up a filter feedback patch from the book the other day and it was so powerful! The synth is screaming now and the mixer is handling (line in, no gain added, channel fader is at 0db, main outs at 0d), my amps can handle it(Roland KC 550's maybe at 30% volume). No clipping, no pops, nothing unwanted or unpleasant. When I try using the Radial I get clicks and pops, same thing with just one pedal at a time. Looks like I need a small quality mixer just for this setup, and not this re-amp box (even though it says it should do exactly what I need). My Sweetwater guy told me about it and he's very knowledgeable. I was really hoping it would work out.


edit: I patched into the Reversible Attenuator on the M10 to lower the output going into the Radial and it seems to be the fix. Now I just need to find out how much pure overdriven/clipped sound the radial can handle. Baby steps!
Last edited by Charlie Labs on Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
stiiiiiiive
Posts: 2536
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by stiiiiiiive » Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:52 am

Charlie Labs wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:46 pm Running the Model 10 directly into the Spring King works as long as the you don't drive the modulars mixer too hard, 4-5 or so per input and 4-5 master were working ok for me. Any higher/ more overdriven and I would get intermittent pops as I pressed a key down full signal/no attack.
Yep... that's what I eperimented with the Carl Martin Headroom... I figured out at that point that an input level/gain setting would be ideal; that's when I found out about the Vermonas and that Demeter unit barely present in EU.
Charlie Labs wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:46 pmSomething strange happened when using the Radial EXTC with the Spring King, when it's send, receive and blend (wet/dry) knobs are all set to 12 o'clock, the audio level gets much lower and the effect becomes 100% wet. Inverting the phase (button) fixes this. If you don't invert the phase and turn the knob to 100% wet, the sound becomes 50/50 wet/dry. Move the knob to dry and the sound is dry. Maybe to someone who knows electronics this is normal or easily explainable, but it's above my knowledgebase.
Just assuming here: if the dry signal and the dry+wet signal have opposite phases, when summing them back, you actually add:
- the dry signal with normal phase + the dry signal with inverted phase = no or weak signal
- plus the wet signal with inverted phase = ... wet signal :)

User avatar
ummagumma
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:03 am

Got curious & powered up, I haven't experimented beyond just using it as a reverb unit. Which, for my purposes, has worked fine :lol:

Anyway I ran through extreme knob settings just to see & recorded it....will post the clip shortly. Computer has been rendering something else out for 5 hours :?

User avatar
ummagumma
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:09 am

Just had a thought: Charlie if you're using a Soundcraft mixer anyway, try inserting the Zverb into a send/return & see if that works any better for you?

Might actually be more versatile, as you can feed anything else into it & control each channel with the mixer sends

User avatar
ummagumma
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:48 am

allright here ya go....I started out messing with the ladder filter, then moved to tweaking the verb settings

https://soundcloud.com/user-200002765/zverb-5u

if this repetitive sequence doesn't do your head in after 11 minutes, I will be impressed. :lol:

Charlie Labs
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:37 pm

ummagumma wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:48 am allright here ya go....I started out messing with the ladder filter, then moved to tweaking the verb settings
What you have coming out sounds much better than where I'm at currently! The Z-Verb sounds great in that clip, thanks for creating it. I can barely get close to anything resembling a "drip" and my volume drops out and the sound gets too wet too soon. Are you running out of the modular direct into the z-Verb then into your mixer/interface or using an insert?

Latest test: I just ran an insert and I'm having the same kind of issue, as soon as I start to raise the Zverbs mix I lose a ton of volume and I'm getting more of a dull plate sound, not a springy drip. i'll continue to mess around.

Thanks again everyone =)

User avatar
ummagumma
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:07 pm

Hmm that is strange!

My signal: Oakley 1-of-3 oscillator-->Oakley ladder filter-->STG mixer-->Zverb--->DAW

(I am still working on my VCA builds so no VCA's :( )

The reverb definitely responds better to treble sounds: if I roll the filter off the reverb almost disappears. The most dramatic sounds had some resonance & the CV from the envelopes affecting the filter.

Start with all the reverb knobs at noon, and set your volume based on that? Also start with your modular output fairly low, like 9am on your CP3? Then sweep that up to around noon, that range should give you useable input levels for the Zverb

As mentioned, if I drop the "mix" knob on the Zverb below 9am it gets REALLY loud....too loud, really, and dry sounding. Also the "tone" knob needs to be above 9am to keep the treble freqs, and if the ladder filter has no high end the reverb isn't as noticeable

User avatar
ummagumma
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:38 pm

If you have a gtr & an amp, try using the Zverb as it was designed, to make sure it works ok? You may even have a funky tube

Modular signal levels ( and impedence? ) are very different from electric gtr. So that probably has an effect

Charlie Labs
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:53 pm

ummagumma wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:38 pm If you have a gtr & an amp, try using the Zverb as it was designed, to make sure it works ok? You may even have a funky tube

Modular signal levels ( and impedence? ) are very different from electric gtr. So that probably has an effect
No guitars or amps but I will try the Zverb with a few different keyboards and go directly into the amp.

I've never had any major issues running any of my keyboards into effects pedals save running a Voyagers and a Mellotron into a few Catalinbread pedals. The pedals sounded amazing, but they just couldn't handle line level, I had to run them so low I'd never be able to rehearse with them. I ended up getting a few Meris pedals that accept line level and that did the trick. I have a few Strymon pedals that also accept line level and have no issues. I'm just trying to get away from digital emulations when it comes to this modular. That's why I'm hoping the re-amp box might still be the answer, I just have to learn how to use it, or get a dedicated mixes just for the Model 10 and its effects.

Thanks again for all the help =)

User avatar
ummagumma
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:37 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by ummagumma » Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:33 am

Welcome, hope you get it sorted out!

Charlie Labs
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:39 am

The send of the Radial is -14db to +3 with 0db being 12 o'clock. I'm leaving the send around 9 o'clock so its probably around -10db going into the Z-Verb, still messing around with other settings on the device. It's starting to sound pretty good (and even with the Model 10's mixers maxed). Backing off the mixers creates a much cleaner spring reverb (as per your advice and as your sound clip). Good times!

Charlie Labs
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:12 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Charlie Labs » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:41 pm

EricK wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:08 pm Also, the Vermona VSR 3 spring reverb, if you can find one cheap. Synth-Werk has a reverb module that is also worthy of consideration.
Hi Eric, you mentioned the Vermona VSR 3 (I'm taking a look at that as well as their ReTubeVerb), any thoughts on it?

I'm also looking at the Demeter RV-1D. If anyone here has used the Vermona or Demeter reverbs, i'd love to hear about it.


Thanks!

Markyboard
Posts: 354
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Springfield, VA

Re: Spring reverb recommendations?

Post by Markyboard » Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:41 am

Hi Charlie-

I have the same Radial Reamp that I use for my MF-105 phaser fed from my mixer effects send at 4dB. Everything you describe makes sense and the Reamp should do exactly what you want. What is the signal strength/ range of the System 10 output?

Doesn’t make sense and I am perplexed.

Post Reply