Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

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901tastic
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Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by 901tastic » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:37 pm

I'm having problems hooking up my MIDI keyboard to control the Model 10 and I wondered if anyone could help?

This is how I've set it up:

Kenton CV OUT > 901-A Control Input
Kenton GATE OUT (Gate V-Trig 15V pull-up) > 902 Control Input

This works fine in so much as all the notes played on my MIDI keyboard will trigger the sound and the correct pitch.

The problem I have is that I cannot get the Envelope Generators to work as I would like them. Only T1 (attack) and T3 (release) seem to change the sound envelope. Adjusting knobs T2 (decay) and Esus (sustain) have no impact on the sound envelope. The sound stays constant for as long as the key is depressed, even if T2 and Esus are at minimum.

I would have liked to patch 911 Output > 904A Control Input, but when I do this, the envelope generator doesn't seem to work at all. When I patch 911 Output > 902 Control Input, this works, but only T1 and T3.

What am I doing wrong?

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by MRNUTTY » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:43 am

So, this is a little different from what you posted on gearslutz, where nothing seems ed to work.

It 'sounds' perhaps like your gate trigger is too short.

The S-trig and V-trig has sustain information (how long the note sustains), determined by how long the trigger is asserted (low for S-trig, High for V-trig).

Some system shave a separate trigger and gate for this. Moog uses on signal with edge and assert definitions.

If the trigger is too short, you don't get a sustain time, or a a decay time long enough to hear.

Also, what are your 904 settings and connections?

Also, can you tell us the type of S-trig -> V-trig cable you've got there? I use a S-trig's from 961's, not the cable converter. Model 10 is too small for a 961.
VoyagerEB, Minitaur, LittlePhattyII, 4xSlimPhatty, Sub37, MF[2x101,2x102,103,104M,105,105B,105M,2x107,108M], 3xCP251, XV351, MP201;
2xMother 32, DFAM, Subharmonicon;
System 55 and Minimoog clones with lots of mods.

901tastic
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by 901tastic » Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:31 pm

S-trig -> V-trig cable? Maybe this is where I am going wrong!

I made a mistake in what I wrote on here initially, then corrected it for Gearslutz.

Am I connecting my MIDI keyboard to control the Model 10 the correct way? (the supplied manual only discusses how to connect one of their own keyboards as a controller)

MIDI keyboard -> Kenton Pro-2000 -> Moog Model 10

Kenton CV OUT (3.5mm jack) -> 901-A [Control Input] (1/4" jack)
Kenton GATE OUT using the Gate V-Trig 15V pull-up setting (3.5mm jack)-> 902 [Control Input] (1/4" jack)

I've set up a very simple patch on the Model 10 as follows with the following patch cable connections:

901-B [Sawtooth] Frequency Range 8' -> 904-A [Signal Input] Fixed Control Voltage=2; Frequency Range=3; Regeneration=0
904-A [Signal Output] -> 902 [Signal Input] Control Mode=LIN; Fixed Control Volume=0
902 [Signal Output] -> Mixing Desk
911 [Output] (1/4" jack) -> 904A [Control Input]

I've tried more elaborate patch connections also but still cannot get the 911s to work.

I use the supplied S-trig cables to connect 911 [Input] (S-trig) -> Controller Outputs [Trigger] (S-trig)

The 911 envelopes only seem to work if I feed a GATE voltage from my Kenton Pro-2000 into the 911 [Input] (S-trig), but only T1 (attack) and T3 (release) change the sound envelope, not T2 (decay) or Esus (sustain).

Hope this helps you figure out if there is a problem with my Model 10 or me!

Thank you in advance for any tips/solutions.

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by MRNUTTY » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:17 pm

Couple of things:
- 904A freq range =3. Try 1, 3 is pretty high CF. Maybe you're not hearing it.
- S-trig (2 prog black connectors). Model 10 doesn't have a V-trig source.

Every modern vendor besides vintage Moog uses a V-trig, like your keyboard. Model 10/15/35/55 uses a S-trig. They are not the same but, they have the same uses cases.

S-trig is low active, V-trig is high active. So voltage is inverted. However, the signals behave differently, and can't be simply inverted to use. You need a V-trig to S-trig converter cable IF and only IF the Model 10 Controller Output section doesn't not provide this for you. I expect it does... but may not, I just can't find a simple reference. However, such a cable is not provided with the Model 15 accessories list.

We need a Model 10 or 15 person to provide details of the Controller Output panel. The schematics available are not specific to this Model built in a possibly Modern fashion.
======================================
Somewhat later....
The 911 envelopes only seem to work if I feed a GATE voltage from my Kenton Pro-2000 into the 911 [Input] (S-trig), but only T1 (attack) and T3 (release) change the sound envelope, not T2 (decay) or Esus (sustain).
Ok, how are you doing this? They are not the same connector, so what've you got there? I see the the KENTON outputs S-trig so that 'should work'. Hmm, but it also outputs hz/v which is not Moog. Wtf is that thing???? :0)
VoyagerEB, Minitaur, LittlePhattyII, 4xSlimPhatty, Sub37, MF[2x101,2x102,103,104M,105,105B,105M,2x107,108M], 3xCP251, XV351, MP201;
2xMother 32, DFAM, Subharmonicon;
System 55 and Minimoog clones with lots of mods.

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by MRNUTTY » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:50 pm

Looking at the KENTON manual:
- config gate for s-trig. Get/make 1/4 TR to Cinch Jones connector (pin polarity noted in manual).
- config Note for Volt/oct

Patch:
RANDON SIGNAL GENERATOR/WHITE NOISE SOURCE->904A->902->audio out
KENTON (GATE) ->911->MULT->904A & 902
Settings:
911-T1=200ms, T2=0, eSus=0, T3=0.
904A-FCV=0, FR=1. Reg=0.
902-FCV=0.

With 902 FCP on 3, and 904A FCP vary between 0 and 4, you should hear the filter working on the white noise.
Set 904A about 2-3, so you can hear the filtered noise, then set 902 FCP to 0, and give it a trigger. If you hear the whole 200ms attack then it should work. It it comes up short, or nothing, then you have a trigger/gate length (the sustain info) missing, and you're only getting a pulse instead of the sustain.
VoyagerEB, Minitaur, LittlePhattyII, 4xSlimPhatty, Sub37, MF[2x101,2x102,103,104M,105,105B,105M,2x107,108M], 3xCP251, XV351, MP201;
2xMother 32, DFAM, Subharmonicon;
System 55 and Minimoog clones with lots of mods.

901tastic
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:12 pm

Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by 901tastic » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:15 pm

Which cable type should I be using to connect the Kenton Pro-2000 GATE OUT (3.5mm jack) to the Moog Model 10 GATE IN?
S-Trig or 1/4" jack?

Whereabouts on the Model 10 should the end of this cable go?

901tastic
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:12 pm

Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by 901tastic » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:29 pm

MRNUTTY wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:50 pm KENTON (GATE) ->911->MULT->904A & 902
The 911 EGs already have S-Trig cables connected to the CP11. I presume this is because the CP11 Controller Outputs section converts an incoming V-Trig signal (1/4" jack) into an S-Trig signal (S-Trig) which then is routed to the 911 EG S-Trig Input by way of an S-Trig to S-Trig cable.

Are you suggesting I disconnect the S-Trig cable that connects the 911 to the CP11 and insert the Kenton Gate Out cable here instead?

Or are you suggesting I connect the Kenton Gate Out to the 911 EG Output (1/4" jack)?

901tastic
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by 901tastic » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:41 pm

Am I right in thinking that the CP11 Controller Outputs section convert V-Trig signals (Control Voltage) to S-Trig signals (Trigger) via the front panel connectors?

dombedos
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by dombedos » Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:22 pm

Am I right in thinking that the CP11 Controller Outputs section convert V-Trig signals (Control Voltage) to S-Trig signals (Trigger) via the front panel connectors?
I don't know exactly how the CP11 works; anyway, those lines should work like the CP2A, that is, CV lines are connected to the CV lines of the controllers' sockets, and ST to the respective lines of the same sockets. Both ere prompted on the CP11 for the user to connect them as he desires. CV (control voltage ) has nothing to do with V-trigger.

L

901tastic
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by 901tastic » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:29 am

Problem solved! (or will be once I receive my Synthesizers.com active V-trig to S-trig cables)

These were the missing link.

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by MRNUTTY » Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:50 pm

901tastic wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:29 am Problem solved! (or will be once I receive my Synthesizers.com active V-trig to S-trig cables)

These were the missing link.
Good! Glad you're on track now! Enjoy! I love System 10/15/35/55 architecture.
VoyagerEB, Minitaur, LittlePhattyII, 4xSlimPhatty, Sub37, MF[2x101,2x102,103,104M,105,105B,105M,2x107,108M], 3xCP251, XV351, MP201;
2xMother 32, DFAM, Subharmonicon;
System 55 and Minimoog clones with lots of mods.

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PaulLawler
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by PaulLawler » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:22 am

I use the Kenton Pro 2000 mk2 and have 2 Jack to S-trig cables, one coming out of ch A gate and the other out of Ch B gate and obviously set to S-trig. Then I can have one of the EGs for the filter. The other option is Moon modular who have Jack to (what I presume is an) Strig to Vtrig convertor at the end, these allow you to sequence it from anything with a normal gate, like an external sequencer. Ebay also have S-trig to V-trig cables for around 11 quid.

SER
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Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by SER » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:14 pm

I am having a similar problem.
I can not get the ENV to fire, I use an Doepfer MCV4 (which is set to S-trigg (this converter normally controls my minimoog with S-TRigg)

Just a simple patch with the MCV4 CV connected to the Signal input from the 901A and the 911 to the control input will not get the ENV to work.

Any suggsestions anyone ?

SER
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Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:44 am

Re: Moog Model 10 > Kenton Pro-2000 > MIDI keyboard

Post by SER » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:44 pm

EDIT: Using the correct S-trigg cable helps a great deal ..... noob

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