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Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

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Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Chuchi » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:57 am

Hi everybody,
This is my first post since I've joined the community very recently.. :D

First of all : I am a scientist; 2) an amateur musician 3) I live in a small village in Italy while being Belgian and therefore a little bit « isolated », 4) not a native English speaker..( things can’t go worth…) :roll:
I’ve just set up a studio with analog gears and have bought a Moog analog delay serie 500.
After days, working with Logic Pro X, I finally have almost tamed that Moog analog delay which was not an easy task since it took me time to understand that the hardware can work alone while the plugin has to work with the hardware and can control some features through a midi-usb interface…I think I’ve understood and with that combinations, it’s possible to save a setting of a project and then recall the exact one when needed..
Now, I need to find some settings that make a nice delay..and I am not very familiar with...So, in order not to start from scratch, I would appreciate if some of you could give me some tips to obtain an intimate jazz vocal (male or female)(some space between chords)…I have to confess that I am a little lost and can’t figure out in which direction should I go to lower the first wave, intensity or the queue. :roll: :shock: :idea:
Thanks to all that had enough patience to read my post.I'l join a screenshot and would appreciate to know if it's correct..
Best regards

Christian

PS: Maybe an additional question..in the tutorial video, there is a synchronization made in Protools I guess with midibeatclock..I could not locate that function in Logic Pro X... :oops:
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Chuchi » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:18 pm

Ciao a tutti, based on tne board index... the rate of answer is approximately about or less than 1%..... :shock: So, I don't really have to visit the website everyday.. :)
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Vsyevolod » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:28 pm

Firstly, very few people on this forum own a 500 series delay, you might be the first.

Secondly, most of us just wiggle knobs until we find out what moves us.

Thirdly, the 500 series delay might not be the best tool for the job you are describing.

Stephen




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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Chuchi » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:09 pm

Thanks for this, I do own other gears...and fourth no need to own the same gear to help with some advices...or ideas...which is according to me the spirit of forums...Nice hello to Seattle that I do like very much :roll: ....
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby stiiiiiiive » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:20 pm

Salut Christian, bienvenu sur le forum :)

To get smooth jazz vocals, I'll second Stephen in that the delay is not the most adapted effect. To me, a reverb will do a more classic, conventional job. But hey, wometimes you don't care being unconventional, huh? Thing is the delay won't have the voice located in a warm, smokey, hardly lit space; but rather in a vast, empty one. The reverb will be more suited to create the ambiance you may be after.

Antoher point you may want to consider, even before the use of a reverb or a delay: the vocal recording process itself. When possible, use a microhone/preamp pair which is suited for jazz voices. I'm not specialist at all in that particular domain, but some guys here or on other forums will.

Hope this helps!
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Chuchi » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:42 am

Thanks a lot for the welcome in French...appreciate :)
I do agree also with the comments made and it's true what you say regarding delay and jazz vocals...In any case, I like to add some subtle delay on vocals in general, I found that it brings somethings without modulation..of course and this is why I've bought that Moog 500 which appears to me as a wonderful beast ...Regarding reverb, I have on my wishlist the Bricasti M7...which sounds fantastic...as its price...My idea was to play with both devices...

Of course, you're right too when you refer to couple of microphone -preamps: I do have a Fearn VT-2 and a Mercury M76m1, the latter being a recreation of the original German designed Telefunken / Siemens amplifier module. Coupled to some Ribbon mics like AEA R84 or R44CE but also on valve mix such the Telefunken AR-51..the different couples shines on vocals (not only). The room I make the tracking has a charming woody natural warm acoustic reverb...and this is why I wanted to experiment with both reverb and delay ...Of course, since I've posted that post and now, I succeeded to tame the beat at least a little...

While it's not what I generally record, just to give you a flavor of the acoustic of the room, here is a link in which her husband and myself have tracked and mixed the vocal of a talented lyric singer..R84 and Fearn..no reverb added or a just a little at the mastering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_3tzfZV7b8
I do like sensual, round and warm voice and I'll will pursue the learning by listening process..

Anyway, Thanks for sharing your thoughts, that's always contributory and I do appreciate...

Warm hello from Parma where at 8:40 AM temperature is already close to 30°C......

Hope to get some tips and advices from experimented guys of the forum

Enjoy life , may the tone be with you

Ciao ciao
Christian
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby stiiiiiiive » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:30 am

Hey Christian.

Ok, so you're definitely knowing better that me what you're talking about :)
I’ll listen to your example later, cannot right now.

So about this delay, one thing you should know is that the "long" setting ("1.0x" vs. "0.5x") results in smoother, less bright repetitions. I tend to prefer this one for its colour, though it reduces the attack on the echoes (I'm using a MF104M).
I would start with something like that :
- Delay time to taste, in the shortest scale (my intuition without the unit with me is… around 0.2-0.3 seconds…)
- Feedback @ 0
- Mix @ 1-2
You may want to send the repetitions in a reverb for more space, in an unobstrusive way.

Feel free to post your experiments so that we can discuss on concrete material!
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Chuchi » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:06 am

Woah Stiiiive, for sure you know your business and in addition you're fast and extremely friendly helpful.. :) .and you're probably not located in the US unless you're an early bird :wink:


Thanks a lot for that answer and starting point..In fact, I've bought that delay because I am usually not totally satisfied of plugins ..without being able to explain...it seems to me that something is missing. Of course, to use settings you need to understand and have a good control of parameters..that obviously I don't have. When I've hear this on the video demo, I've found that it has some natural "grain" missing in the plugins that I have ...
My idea was to send a vocal track or acoustic guitar track to a retro 176 to get some "envelope" on the delay..(sorry for my description, but I don't know the appropriate terminology..
And I was thinking to use a nice natural reverb to add some space ( as you mention.."may want to send the repetitions in a reverb for more space, in an unobtrusive way).

I know that they are some convolutions reverb, that many respectable musicians/sound engineers favor..but, I can't succeed to use the bricasti free impulse with Logic Pro X (mavericks) using the Space designer
) I guess that they have to be converted in another format and do not know how to do and where to place the folder..
This is why (as for the analog delay) I'd like to get some hardware with which you can turn the knobs and pay attention to what you're listening to...instead of multiplying the parameters until you (I) become completely lost..and the time is flying so fast hat at the end I spend more time to change parameters ( remind that, if I have good ears and sensibility, I am not familiar with the technical parts (or not yet..than to make music..
I personally don't favor the Lexicon (which most are in love with..and probably because, on the demo I've hear, tones are exaggerated in order to show potentials..I'll have to face that dilemma and solve it before buying some gears plugins or hardware...
What do you have as reverb ??
Of course, I'll keep member posted of my trials and look forward to be able to reach an acceptable

Thanks again for your advice regarding reverbs and tone in general and wherever you are enjoy that sunny day.. ...
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby stiiiiiiive » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:30 am

Not in the US indeed: in France, where the sun shines as well today 

Long story short: I used to make music with a computer. Real instruments, recording an mix in the box. Then once, I spent so much time testing and sorting free plug ins I had been downloading… I just got disgusted of that side of music production at home. I almost totally gave up the computer. Went even more towards live. Improvisation. Experimental. Minimalism. Hardware.
My point is: indeed clicking is not like turning buttons (that’s why a bunch of Mooguys are here). To each to find the tools that allow them to get the maximum pleasure out of the process. Maybe plug-ins are not for you. Hardware have some drawbacks too though, the most noticeable of which are the price and the space it takes. But then again, to each their own.


As far as reverb goes…

First, a side-note. I recently had the opportunity to get back to the computer in order to mix my two pieces band’s demo. To do so, I used my friend’s Logic Pro X, which I did not know. The reverb plug-in I used was… maybe a Waves reverb, I don’t quite remember.

Other than that, most of the time I’m using an Electro Harmonix Cathedral. It is part of the pedal board (I’m a guitar pedal addict…) I’m always using with my synths. If you decide to walk the hardware path for reverbs, you will certainly find a whole lot of topics here and elsewhere about reverb pedals and/or racks.

For myself, I love the Cathedral for being quite well featured as a pedal, not that expensive, and being able to sound both natural or weird. The Strymon Blue Sky / Big Sky and the Eventide Space are kind of the tip-top of mentioned units, and I think it’s not wrong, but I prefer the more “guitarish” character of the Cathedral –you won’t get the Massive Attack reverb with it but I’m more into little dirty stuffs.

I also bought a Carl Martin Headroom (double channel spring reverb in a pedal), but as it does not have a input gain setting, the synths tend to hit the springs too hard. I’ve just discovered the Demeter Reverbulator, but it seems to be hard to find here in EU.
Another thing I sometimes do is to use analogue BBD(*) delays with short times and high feedback settings: you get kind of a roomy cheap reverb that you will or will not like but in any case not stay indifferent to.

(*) Bucket Brigade Device: this is one of the rare analogue methods to generate delay, with tapes. I won’t explain here as any wiki site will do it better than me, but just know that the Moog delays are BBD and their character is typical of this technology.

For studio, I would recommend something more suited than a guitar pedal, though. Kurzweil used to make some great FX units called Rumour and Mangler. Other than that, again, you may want to read the advice of good people here.
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Chuchi » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:50 am

I'll go sometimes in Paris for some meetings at ANSES where I do some jobs..
Thanks a lot stiive for those complete answers and for those interesting information ..I will jump on my internet free gigas left to check...

Indeed clicking is not the feeling you have when you turn a pot , a fader or a switch...

I'll keep you posted on my progress or my lack of progress...Hope to get some news from others guys who also like analog gears...

Have fun in France...

Ciao ciao a presto as they say over here :D
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Vsyevolod » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:16 pm

stiiiiiiive wrote:Kurzweil used to make some great FX units called Rumour and Mangler.


I make daily use of my Rumour and Mangler. Great used prices on them are still to be had and the sound is par excellence. Simple to setup and use, and simple to modify existing programs.

I use it with my daily piano playing, with my modular/Fooger setup, and pretty much everything.

Stephen




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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby stiiiiiiive » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:35 pm

Yeah, I used to play a KDFX equiped K2XXX; those chips are really, really great indeed.
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby abSynth » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:55 pm

Vsyevolod wrote:Firstly, very few people on this forum own a 500 series delay, you might be the first.

Secondly, most of us just wiggle knobs until we find out what moves us.

Thirdly, the 500 series delay might not be the best tool for the job you are describing.

Stephen
.



I'm trying to do the same thing as the op I think. What would you recommend other than a 500 series?
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Re: Settings for intimate jazz vocals..

Postby Vsyevolod » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:31 pm

For vocals, I would stay with digital delay and reverb. The Analog delay (any make or model) will colour the sound perhaps more than you want. Digital really shines here.

Stephen




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