Newbie question: what makes Moog delay better?

[dswo]

I'm looking at analogue delays for synthesizer. What makes the Minifooger delay better than, say, a Carbon Copy for about $110 or a Biyang AD-8 for about $50? I like the Moog gear I've bought so far. But for effects, I really don't know what to look/listen for.

[Alien8]

This question is answered by the following statement: use your ears.

When I say "use YOUR ears" that means it's up to you. What is better oranges or shrimp? In my case neither because I react negatively to both of them!

Personally, I find the Moog delay musically playable, and expressively rewarding. The other delays may have some of this ability too, however, not like the Moog delay does. I'm talking about big brother 104Z, not the mini. From what I have heard on the demos tho, this little buddy is not far of from the 104. It just has this tone that works for me. Some other analog delays do a certain sound, but something is missing to me. That "thing" that is missing from other delays is critical to how I express through music.

Now, there are other brand delays that do it, but it goes back to tone for me - I like the dark sound, gnawing decay & self eating oscillation. Some like a cleaner or brighter repeat, but I don't hear echos that way in real life, they dissolve in some frequency related way. Mind you I'm not trying to recreate what is already available in the world, but having something that responds like a real world echo is inspiring. It's not fairy dust - its Moog dust.

Aside from that, the feature of CV control is a big part of Moog gear.

[facon]

That's a loaded question. There is no such thing as better or worse unless you're talking about poor build quality. I don't think the Moog or Carbon Copy would fall into the poor quality camp. I have no experience with the other delay.

The Carbon Copy is a well known and loved delay pedal. It's perfectly adequate for an analog delay. With the Moog delay, you're getting some more features. It has a drive knob and an expression/CV input. This opens up some more possibilities for you.

As far as sound quality, only you can judge. Everybody likes something different. If you're just getting into effects, the differences between analog delays may seem really subtle at first. The Moog uses bucket brigade chips. These are expensive because they're out of production and a lot of people like them. They're not necessarily superior, they just have their own sound characteristics.

Listen to all of the demos you can. See if one seems to stand out more to you. I bought the Moogerfooger delay because it stood out to me as an amazing delay.

[GovernorSilver]

I agree with everyone who said it's all about your ears.

The Carbon Copy is a fine budget delay pedal with modulation, which is not offered in the Minifooger Delay. You can have it modded too by Molten Voltage (who also offers a mod for the Malekko Echo 616):
http://www.moltenvoltage.com/products/M ... ytion.html

OTOH, you just might love the sound of another pedal - like the Moog Minifooger Delay... or whatever. Then it doesn't matter how many features get slapped onto the pedal if it doesn't have a sound that you love.

Again, it's all about your ears. I've seen so many posts from guitarists who buy a DMM and then sell it because they prefer a Diamond Memory Lane. Or somebody buys a Memory Lane then ditches it for a a Moog. Or somebody else ditches a Moog for a Skreddy Echo. Somebody else buys the Skreddy and ditches it for a DMM. You get the idea.

[weemac]

The biyang ad8 is not analogue. It is just voiced to sound like one..
They are a great pedal for the money though...


Eden.

[dswo]

Thanks, all.

It seems that effects are just like instruments: there's no substitute for actually spending time with them to learn what they can do and how they sound.

[unfiltered37]

Thanks, all.

It seems that effects are just like instruments: there's no substitute for actually spending time with them to learn what they can do and how they sound.

If you are using analog synths, the 104 is the ultimate in my opinion, but the minifooger sounds great as well. But honestly, especially for analog synths, the CV control puts the 104 over the top of any other delay. I have been experimenting with playing the 104 with a small midi keyboard as well as using a pedal to swell the feedback and mix, and it is opening up new worlds. the minifooger stuff is obviously guitar oriented, with limited external control, which is half the appeal. So the sound is there, but not the control. As far as inexpensive BBD's, you can't go wrong with the minifooger.

Also, go Pirates! I used to go to their football games all the time as a kid.

[EMwhite]

I used to own a Diamond Memory Lane II; completely obsessed over it for ages, finally saved up enough money and bought one. It's very clean and very nice, pure analog but has tap tempo, tilt EQ and other features. Over all it was nice but I sold it to downsize, move things around.

Now I've got the 104M; like it alot but to be honest, I don't use many of the features but those that I do use: spillover mode, [very] occasional Midi sync'ing, and a wide range make it worth the money for me and I'm not likely to replace it.

Features aside, many use the same Panasonic MN300* BBD ICs (essentially, capacitor arrays with 512 or 1024 stages) but the 'voicing' is what is important; what is the frequency range, what sort of eq or frequency roll off is present and how will this effect the sound over time when a large amount of re-gen is occurring. Some analog pedals have a fair amount of hiss, or clicking (from clocking), some sound more digital, some are adaptive across the range of delay times and re-gen such that the eq settings are not fixed, some have drive circuits before or within the loop, allow for external effects.

Ultimately, the first bit of advice (use ears) is the best. Take YOUR instrument with the setup and strings that you typically play and plug in, see if it speaks to you. There is no best.

Quick detour: I bought the TC Flashback and it's really cool. So when the TC Flashback x4 came out, I couldn't resist. I love the looper and the workflow built into it but I NEVER USE the delay portion of it. And it has nothing to do with sound quality or analog or digital because there are piles of tone prints not to mention the editor which is now available. I also have the Catalinbread Echorec which is squarely a DSP emulation and it is wonderful, play with it all the time. You never know what (or who) you are going to like and live harmoniously with until you've spent some time together.

[_DemonDan_]

What makes the Minifooger delay better than, say, a
Carbon Copy for about $110 or a Biyang AD-8 for about $50?

As others have said here, a lot of it has to do with how you're going to use it. Those looking for for a
rock-a-billy slapback echo will appreciate sonic qualities that other delay users hate. I often use delays
as "atmospheric instruments" that I "play" in real time. Another common use is sweeping a resonant low-pass filter on bright bass notes through a delay with feedback.

Until you know which delay uses are important to you it's hard to decide what delay qualities to look for.

If you're only considering Analog delays, here are some qualities to assess:

Is the delay time long enough for me?
Slapback users only need 100ms or less.
Those who want an entire musical phrase to repeat may want 700ms or more.

Is the delay short enough for me?
Extremely short delays with lots of feedback create cool "flange tunnel" effects that ring at specific pitches.
The ability to dial in shorter delay times gives you more "notes" to choose from.

How noisy is the delay?
Not as important for snapback users, but critical for atmospheric users.

How bright/dark is the delay?
Everyone has their own opinion on this one. Darker delays allow the repeats to create a background bed of sound that doesn't interfere with the dry signal. (Guitarists especially appreciate this.) Those who use delays to create "sprinkles" of sound find very dark delays unusable because the sprinkles are dead before the second repeat.

Can it do "infinite+" feedback?
By infinite+, I mean that the repeats actually get louder over time (not all can do this).
This is crucial for allowing a delay to get quiet, then bringing back up.

What happens to the repeats after many iterations?
Does the sound end up as a series of "clacky" clicks over time?
Or, does it always end up as the same frequency or sound, no matter what the input was?
Ideally, the repeated sound is something pleasant to *your* ear after 100 repeats.

For the last question, the MF-104M and Minifooger Delay are excellent examples of repeats that still sound great after a long time. THAT'S why I'd buy either of those over your other choices.

[dswo]

Thanks to all who have commented so far, and especially to DemonDan for distilling his experience in such clear language. It gives my untutored ears something to listen for.

Greetings, unfiltered37, from the pirate ship where I teach Shakespeare!