Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

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HouseCliche
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Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by HouseCliche » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:48 pm

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18768

The Minitaur firmware thread above makes sad reading - in fact it's borderline unbelievable - this is THE Moog Music right? Somebody slap the bleep out of me cos I must be dreaming or in some kind of bizarro nightmare where some folks at Moog forgot their heritage and decided it was okay to throw out some embarrassing lame excuse for a synth that sounds great, but has no practical use in studio or stage.

My Minitaur has been sitting in a box since after about two weeks of use, I followed the above thread faithfully and with real hope, but each new release of the firmware renders up new esoteric, dumb, frustrating or ridiculous bugs that would have Old Bob spinning.

Let's be clear - I'm not blaming the guys and girls on the ground at Moog who have to try and fix this bleep - I am blaming some dickwad at 'corporate' who decided that this sorry ass Minitaur scenario was okay, cos it's our 'budget' unit.

Well here's the news - It's not okay - it's a shameful disgrace.


#rantover

Moog Music
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by Moog Music » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:26 am

Hi HouseCliche,
What is the exact problem/s you are having with your Minituar?
Have you contacted our tech support department about it?

-Your Friends at Moog Music

Amos
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by Amos » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:11 pm

I'm sorry the beta process has been long and frustrating for you. This is precisely why it's stayed "in beta" -- so that the next officially-released firmware is awesome and trouble-free.

I dispute your contention that each new version of the beta firmware renders up new esoteric dumb bugs, though -- I think we're pretty solid at this point.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18768&start=360#p126480

Why don't you load the latest version, run a note calibration, and tell me if you personally still experience any bugs. If so, describe them and I'll fix them if I can. Otherwise, perhaps you'll be able to get back to using your Minitaur.

cheers,

Amos

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DonutDude
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by DonutDude » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:42 pm

I have a Minitaur and have had no problems with it at all.

I feel bad for all of you having problems and understand the frustration you must be dealing with. You are using a beta operating system, not yet available to the general public. Moog Music hasn't posted a new operating system for the Minitaur, or the Little Phatty on their website. When they do, I will hop right on it. Until then, I don't see any payoff in running a beta OS.

I do appreciate those people who spend the time with beta versions. Testing all the different scenarios and finding all the bugs, but I don't think it is fair to complain about beta software when it is obvious Moog is continually striving to improve their products. My two cents.

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HouseCliche
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by HouseCliche » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:37 pm

Ok you guys are right up to a point - more accurately I might be describing frustration with beta so maybe my topic is misleading - but maybe not - read on.

Amos - respect to you and your good work, great communication, and constant updates. I won't get into a bun fight, but I do feel the beta has been characterised by a 'fix one thing, oops something else broke' pattern. It's a beta, I get it, that's maybe how it's supposed to work. But it's been 12 months since public v2. Do you have everything you need to do your job properly? Serious question - is it just you? Do you have a testing team? At least a second set of eyeballs. Is this project properly resourced? It feels like it isn't.

Public V2 doesn't do what it claims.

Manage under the hood settings consistently and reliably - No.
Save, manage and recall presets consistently and reliably - No.

At least Moog have acknowledged the editor is a doozy.

Let's put it another way - I own more synths than is healthy, but this is my first Moog - I expected to be shedazzled, blown away - I imagined myself steeped in a warm analog bubble bath of joy. I was, up to a point, until the unit just stopped delivering on the marketing promise of v2. In short, the Moog experience was disappointing - I have to turn to a boutique MacBeth for my bubble bath instead.

My girlfriend stopped asking me why 'that lovely little Moog' is sitting in its box - I think she feels sorry for it ...

*sniff*



So my title still stands - Has Moog dropped the ball on this?

robml
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by robml » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:32 am

heres my 2c.

the minitaur isnt the budget model, it just happens to be the cheapest hardware synth moog make. theres no expensive version of it. but maybe there should be ;)

i doubt there is a corporate guy at moog dictating things should be done on the cheap.

i think the real issue here is moog keep upgrading the features of the hardware synths. people want them now, and when the beta isnt working people get upset.

i think that the first software editor wasnt great. this hardware needs a good editor. i would leave judgement until the next editor is released ;)

what is GOOD is that moog are constantly saying "lets improve this", but on the down side that leaves them open to criticism as to why the new features were not implemented in the first place. me personally, i like things to do what they say on the box, and thats it. its clean cut. put it on ebay if you are not happy with it.

also, the betas are available to the general public. most betas are not. usually you need to sign up to a beta program where you are told using the betas is like being a guinnea pig for a pharma-sutical (sic) company. imo moog should do this to avoid people waiting and getting impatient and upset.

cheers

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HouseCliche
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by HouseCliche » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:36 am

First - I won't be putting this baby on eBay cos it sounds lovely - worse case I use it as first released, no presets, just dial in and play, simple. But don't promise me fancy presets and settings management then fail to deliver a usable solution after 12 months.

Second, I commend Moogs stance on betas being open - it's a refreshing approach that has it's benefits in terms of capturing a diverse audience of testers who might not normally sign up for a beta - some of them will moan, like me - I see this as a benefit - I'm not some fanboy who signs up for all the closed betas then just toes the company line - these people exist and will defend the strangest of positions to maintain their status as preferred testers - trust me, I've spoken to a few in my time - they exist.

Third- my real question is about resourcing - I suspect Moog have understaffed this - they have a quarterback and no one else. I don't know for sure - see my questions above.

What I do know for sure is that modern software development best practice would have at least a two man team on this - if it's 1 person, then it's under resourced and Moog have dropped the ball.

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MC
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by MC » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:20 pm

<harsh reply deleted>

Carry on, sorry....
Last edited by MC on Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amos
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by Amos » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:40 pm

(I'm gonna go ahead and say that I think HouseCliche's point of view is valid and I don't mind him sharing it here -- first post was a little strong but follow-up seemed pretty darn reasonable to me)

keep it civil, and I hope that the *imminent* official Minitaur firmware & editor update makes everyone happy :)

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HouseCliche
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by HouseCliche » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:11 pm

This^^ - thanks Amos - I'm not trying to offend anyone, and yes I did come on too strong initially . Not claiming to be an expert, redefine anything, cry, or be petulant. I figured this was a forum where a point of view could be tolerated, so I gave willingly :)

Just want to see progress and looking forward to it.

Peace.

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misterpete
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by misterpete » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:46 am

Drop the ball? I'm still using and loving my Minitaur more often than any other bass including my much more expensive Taurus 3 ~ even without presets it's a simple matter to turn a few knobs and get a great sound out of it. Add unparalleled support, constant R&D Development with FREE frequent FirmWare and software updates and that makes it's pretty hard to beat.
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tagirov
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by tagirov » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:37 pm

Personally, I have had problems with Minitaur, and it even hanged on stage at least twice.
All the latest firmwares work much better, and 2.0.26 is great.

I love testing new firmwares and the new alpha(or beta) MT editor which is gonna be much more interesting than the old editor.

And thanks to all who share their bug reports and feature requests here.
And thanks to Amos who stays with us in everyday/night contact and works really hard, I believe he's a real synth 'nerd' :)

From the other point, HouseCliche's opinion is pretty clear, maybe Amos needs at least one or two 'official' testers, who have to be Moog Music employees.

From my experience, Moog Music's relations with its customers is great. They always reply and always try to solve problems.
I think they'll improve the firmware/software process.
Best regards, Ruslan Tagirov.

Toyz: MBPro+Live 9.x+LogicProX, Moog: LP StageII/Sub37/Minitaur, Clavia Nord: Stage2 SW73/ModularG2Engine, Roland: MC909, Korg: MS-20, R-3, Otomachines Bisquit/DER OTO, etc.

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HouseCliche
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by HouseCliche » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:35 pm

Yes Tagirov you got it completely - I suppose that's what I was really trying to say but I didn't mean to make any assumptions (or offend anyone). It's pretty clear that Amos does a great job and it's really cool that he stays close to the community and pretty much answers everything he can. I'd just like to see him get a bit more support from Moog, a second pair of hands/eyes are always handy no matter how large or small the task is perceived to be.


As per appeals to go back to just knobs, no presets etc. this needs to be clarified. Some folks don't seem to understand that there are numerous customers who bought 'Rev 2'. I am one of them. I deliberately avoided Rev 1 because it doesn't suit my desktop workflow . IMO Rev 2 was a logical extension of the Minitaur's already great capabilities that broadened the appeal and opened up a wider market - people like me who bought Rev 2 for preset management and various other added extras.

I'm perfectly comfortable with 'just knobs' but I'm covered there already with numerous classic and boutique synths - Rev 2 promised something different that sadly didn't live up (yet) to the marketing spiel.

I'm confident it will all be good - but please, no more suggestions to 'just use it as is' - everybody has different needs, and so far Rev 2 isn't quite what I paid for.

gab66
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Re: Did Moog drop the ball with the Minitaur?

Post by gab66 » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:08 am

I have/had lots of troubles with my Minitaur too.
I have to reboot the unit all the time. It freezes on a midi note and then it does not receive nothing...
I think that we have all the sames problems. It's impossible to start a project with. It's really amazing. I never had a so instable synth, including the cheapest/badest i had in my life. How this kind of thing can happen? It's Moog no? One of the oldest and better synth company... That is know for it's perfect sound and quality... :?
I contacted Moog, that took a long time to respond to my mails. I had to call them several times from France.
It's really bizar to see a brand like Moog release an instruments that is not stable at all. And with a so bad support. They surely consider it has the low cost one.
When are they gonna release this famous update that they promise since a long time?
This instrument does not really make sense without a VST/AU. Will the release be really VST as Moog told me?

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