Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here please

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Stormy
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by Stormy » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:25 pm

One of my oscillators is also out of tune after the update to v2.0.25. I get unison around the 2 o'clock mark on the VCO 2 knob, and can go to +7 semitones when fully clockwise. Turning the knob anticlockwise, I am also able to go down to 1 octave and 5 semitones below the pitch of VCO 1 (further than normal!). I have tried loading a few different patches using the editor, running the pot calibration routine, resetting the globals and downgrading to v2.0.21 (which displayed normal tuning again) before returning to v2.0.25 (back to a tuning offset), none of which has helped.

I also noticed I have sizeable dead zones on each end of the VCO 2 frequency pot's travel where the tuning does not change. I decided to test other pots too, and all the ones I tried also have dead zones of at least one tick/division on the front panel when looking at the MIDI data output by the Minitaur. No CC data is sent while the pots are in their dead zones, even after running the pot calibration again, although they all seem to be capable of generating the full range of 0-127 in 7-bit mode. is this normal? Is it anything to do with the firmware, or do the pots themselves have flat values for a portion of their travel at either end? The situation seems to be the same in v2.0.0, v2.0.4, v2.0.21 and v2.0.25.

Thanks for all your hard work so far, Amos!

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tagirov
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by tagirov » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:54 am

Stormy wrote:One of my oscillators is also out of tune after the update to v2.0.25. I get unison around the 2 o'clock mark on the VCO 2 knob, and can go to +7 semitones when fully clockwise. Turning the knob anticlockwise, I am also able to go down to 1 octave and 5 semitones below the pitch of VCO 1 (further than normal!). I have tried loading a few different patches using the editor, running the pot calibration routine, resetting the globals and downgrading to v2.0.21 (which displayed normal tuning again) before returning to v2.0.25 (back to a tuning offset), none of which has helped.

I also noticed I have sizeable dead zones on each end of the VCO 2 frequency pot's travel where the tuning does not change. I decided to test other pots too, and all the ones I tried also have dead zones of at least one tick/division on the front panel when looking at the MIDI data output by the Minitaur. No CC data is sent while the pots are in their dead zones, even after running the pot calibration again, although they all seem to be capable of generating the full range of 0-127 in 7-bit mode. is this normal? Is it anything to do with the firmware, or do the pots themselves have flat values for a portion of their travel at either end? The situation seems to be the same in v2.0.0, v2.0.4, v2.0.21 and v2.0.25.


Same problems for me: out of tune, 'dead pot zones' and also dead notes after upgrading to 2.0.25. Now running note calibration.

UPDATE: Note calibration routine has fixed the out-of tune oscillators.
There are still 2 issues: dead zones in pots exactly as described by Stormy: each end of each pot doesn't affect the sound unless i turn the pot more than one tick from the left/right end.
And there are 'dead' notes. My Minitaur doesn't play every second note I'm sending to it.
bleep. It' seems my synth is a bit broken, less than one week before the live show :)

UPDATE2: Pot Calibration as described in document minitaur sysex info doesn't affect the dead pot zones issue for me too.
Me downgrading to 2.0.21

UPDATE 3: Downgraded to 2.0.21. Again OSC2 out of tune, running note calibration again.

Update 4: FW 2.0.21, note calibration done, everything is in tune. 'Dead notes' gone. But the 'dead pot zones' issue is still there. Pot calibration doesn't help.
It is noticeable in editor: when you start turning some pot, the GUI pot starts turning when the real 'hardware' knob reaches the first division mark (the second mark for Cutoff) from the right or the left end.
Have to be fixed if it's possible.
Best regards, Ruslan Tagirov.

Toyz: MBPro+Live 9.x+LogicProX, Moog: LP StageII/Sub37/Minitaur, Clavia Nord: Stage2 SW73/ModularG2Engine, Roland: MC909, Korg: MS-20, R-3, Otomachines Bisquit/DER OTO, etc.

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misterpete
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by misterpete » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:50 pm

can somebody point me to this 'note calibration routine" please?
tagirov wrote:UPDATE: Note calibration routine has fixed the out-of tune oscillators.
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Amos
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by Amos » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:17 pm

Hi everyone... I'm working on the "out of tune" thing, it's complicated, but I am making progress. No matter what firmware version you are using, the note calibration will get the notes back in tune... if you calibrate using v2.0.21 firmware, then v2.0.25 will be out of tune (until you do note calibration under the new firmware) and vice versa...

regarding the pots having a dead zone at either extremity, is this new, or did you just notice it? I don't think anything has changed with the pot calibration since many versions ago. I'll look more closely at this tomorrow, to see if I can get better sensitivity at the extremes of pot travel. There may be some amount of dead-band by necessity, but perhaps it can be less.

here is note calibration sysex:
http://www.moogconnect.net/downloads/mi ... 72_Cmd.syx

Tagirov: Your minitaur didn't play every second note (using firmware v2.025) because it was in "poly chain" mode. ;) It thinks it was voice 1 of 2, apparently. "Factory Restore" (restores globals to default) should fix this:
http://www.moogconnect.net/downloads/mi ... re_Cmd.syx

Stormy
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by Stormy » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:43 am

Hi Amos,

I hadn't noticed the dead zones before, so I went back and tried it in previous versions of the firmware - it's the same in v2.0.0, v2.0.4, v2.0.21 and v2.0.25, so I don't think it's a new issue - I just wondered whether it was intentional/a side effect of the hardware/accidental.

Amos wrote:There may be some amount of dead-band by necessity, but perhaps it can be less.


Is the dead-band there to account for manufacturing variation in pot values? I understand this may be necessary from a production perspective if each individual Minitaur can't be calibrated during production test for reasons of time, but it seems a shame to waste some of the range of the pots when you've gone to the effort of creating a calibration routine. It's not a huge problem for me, it's just noticeable when using the synth, and detracts a little from the immediacy of a real knob-per-function front panel (a large part of the reason I bought the Minitaur).

an3
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by an3 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:52 am

i've got the same problem, put with CV did al the already posted suggestions, also those of amos. not working.. minitaur gone woes on cv

Amos
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by Amos » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:07 pm

Hi all, here is a new firmware v2.0.26.

http://www.moogconnect.net/downloads/mi ... 2_0_26.syx

you WILL need to run a Note Calibration after you update to this firmware (unless you already did so on v2.0.25), and that's OK.

The reason for the pitch change in recent firmware is that the control voltages are now updated faster. This improves quality of the signals but requires a Note Calibration to re-tune the pitch CV. I apologize for not making this clear before posting v2.0.25; I had re-calibrated my own Minitaur weeks ago during development and forgot about it (since, it was tracking perfectly again after the 5-minute tuning process)

Note Calibration is one-click easy using the new editor, which is in the last rounds of beta testing right now. If you are not already using the new editor you can send the Note Calibration sysex file to your Minitaur to start the tuning process:
http://www.moogconnect.net/downloads/mi ... 72_Cmd.syx
It takes about 5 minutes, tuning from lowest to highest note. The lowest notes take longest to tune, and it gets faster as it goes up the scale.


New feature in this version:
- can now adjust External Input Level from the hardware panel, by holding Glide + turning the VCO 1 Level knob.

Also, I looked into the observation about the panel knobs... I'm pretty sure it's a mechanical property of the potentiometers themselves, that the last few degrees of rotation do not change the actual resistance value of the pot. In short, this is not new and not entirely controlled by firmware. I reduced the software deadband in this new firmware, so you can try a pot calibration using the new firmware, and you might get maybe 1% more out of the knobs... but it's barely noticeable and most of what you are seeing there is the mechanics of the pots themselves.

cheers,

Amos

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tagirov
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by tagirov » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:25 pm

The 2.0.26 firmware seems to work, everything is in tune after note calibration, no dead notes, the external input level adjusting works just fine.

There's still an open issue with pots, and the pot calibration doesn't affect at all.
There are still noticeable 'dead ends'.

P.S.I've also checked the Sub Phatty's pots behavior with its editor - and this exactly the same - the GUI pots start moving only when hardware pot reaches its first panel mark (the third for Cutoff) and the positions/values of GUI and pots aren't the same, e.g. when I set the Cutoff pot to 5kHz, the GUI pot in the SUB Phatty editor is at 5kHz + 1,5 mark more, or when I set Resonance at 4, the GUI pot is at 4.5.
It's not critical problem, but It seems that the pots don't correspond their scale marks on the panel and it can be a problem in live situation, e.g (in SUB PHATTY case) when I want to set the OSC2 freq exactly at +5 (now when I set +5, the GUI pot in the editor is set at somewhere around +5.5, and it sounds not as clean perfect fifth, so to get perfect fifth I have to set the pot somewhere between 4 and 5 – and it's bad, cause In live situation I not always hear the synth's clean sound).

The same problem with Minitaur - you can't trust the pot's scales anymore.

I didn't notice this before too, but I believe it's a hardware issue, but maybe it can somehow be fixed it firmware (maybe by applying non-linear scale to pot value reading functions).
And it shall be fixed for both Minitaur and Sub Phatty.
Best regards, Ruslan Tagirov.

Toyz: MBPro+Live 9.x+LogicProX, Moog: LP StageII/Sub37/Minitaur, Clavia Nord: Stage2 SW73/ModularG2Engine, Roland: MC909, Korg: MS-20, R-3, Otomachines Bisquit/DER OTO, etc.

Amos
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by Amos » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:48 pm

I am pretty sure the pots are the same as always, and they are only now coming under the microscope. I actually have some curves in the Minitaur freq pot, to try to set 4ths and 5ths near the knob positions, but maybe I need to adjust them a bit.

I'll evaluate the pot situation some more. I think what we are seeing though is that the pot goes from zero to maximum, within a few degrees less than the physical rotation. So, the result is slightly less than the maximum mechanical resolution, but no effect on the actual function or range of the knobs.

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tagirov
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by tagirov » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:59 pm

Yes, you're right, we don't need to believe the scales, we have to use our ears first.

But why there are POT scales which have marks like +3, +5, etc.?
And the difference between the 'real values' and the scale marks on the synth is significant - when I set to +5 on the synth - it doesn't sound like +5 :)
Best regards, Ruslan Tagirov.

Toyz: MBPro+Live 9.x+LogicProX, Moog: LP StageII/Sub37/Minitaur, Clavia Nord: Stage2 SW73/ModularG2Engine, Roland: MC909, Korg: MS-20, R-3, Otomachines Bisquit/DER OTO, etc.

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bichuelo
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by bichuelo » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:07 pm

In my case, I did the pot calibration twice, and only then the pots began responding as they should.
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Amos
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by Amos » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:47 pm

tagirov wrote:Yes, you're right, we don't need to believe the scales, we have to use our ears first.

But why there are POT scales which have marks like +3, +5, etc.?
And the difference between the 'real values' and the scale marks on the synth is significant - when I set to +5 on the synth - it doesn't sound like +5 :)


well, you'll note, on the Minitaur panel there is no scale around the FREQ pot. :)
On the Sub Phatty there is, but it's not precision instrumentation... we calibrate the center position but not each semitone marking.

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till
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by till » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:13 pm

Amos,

when using the new 2.0.26 version here, I get the same problem as in 2.0.25:

The octave repeating is working on VCO 2 perfect,
but the VCO 1 is playing some low C note on the repeating octave notes A, A#, B, C.

Of cause I did the calibration before trying this. under 2.0.25 and 2.0.26. And the FREQ is set to 12 o'Clock for no detune.

This repeating octave is a very musical way to deal with the top not range.
keep on turning these Moog knobs

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Prodigy * Minimoog (1979) * Voyager * MF102 * MF103 * MF104z * MP201 * Taurus 3 * Minitaur * Sub Phatty * MF105 * Minimoog reissues with MUSEs * One

ALB
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by ALB » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:08 pm

Hi Amos, long time no see !

cousinofdeath wrote:I took the Minitaur on stage last night. Opening for bigger band, so packed house. I give the Minitaur a B. It performed well...but the preset recalling system, when used in conjunction with MIDI CC is really not working for me when using an AKAI MPC1000 as the sequencer. It seems like the knobs will unexpectedly change from SNAP to RELATIVE to PASS-THRU...or even just get completely out of whack.


nearly the same config, nearly the same troubles... guess it's a midi affair, a lot of people here seems to work in USB from computers with different problems (or questions)

i'm using the minitaur on stage now, on radio promo-recordings, etc... and it works sometimes with no problems, and sometimes with. and i'm still not confortable with it. always the same, like sometimes it looses a note, or something occurs that close the enveloppe so i just ear "ticks" instead of notes. So i keep playing my song, singing and playing the piano or guitar, waiting for the next song/preset to ear the bass by switching the presets (works very good for me via Pch's by the way. Cc's on filters,etc during the song too).

i've changed my midi-hub for a better one, no changes. i tried without the hub, several configurations, it occurs too. (and no link with the updates that works very well on other points... except the hardware "save" way that was better before, with no locating. waiting the editor for that )

time for questions:

Do the Minitaur is really filtering ALL the midi informations that are coming in, EXCEPT its own channel ? Because i always see the light flashing too on the Minitaur for events that are not dedicated to him... could you check if other cc's/note on-note off than the dedicated ones could make troubles in it ?

it still sounds good, but i would really appreciate if the performance/challenge on stage was not first in "do the minitaur will play all the set tonight?"

cheers & keep giving us some good news !!

cousinofdeath
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Re: Minitaur firmware update soon - your requests here pleas

Post by cousinofdeath » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:02 pm

ALB wrote: except the hardware "save" way that was better before, with no locating. waiting the editor for that )


I agree with this WHOLE HEARTEDLY
The locating feature is nice, but i feel it's too complicated a sequence to be of any real use. I prefer the old manner.
Minitaur (sequenced via MIDI with an MPC1000 and USB w/ mac running OSX 10.10)
MF-101 Lo-Pass Filter
MF-103 Phaser

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