Octave Range on the Minitaur?

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eXode
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Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by eXode » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:22 am

I'm wondering about this bit. The Taurus III went from middle C and 5 octaves down (but not above middle C) afaik. Will this be the case with the Minitaur as well?

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_DemonDan_
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by _DemonDan_ » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:23 am

eXode wrote:The Taurus 3 went from middle C and 5 octaves down
(but not above middle C) afaik. Will this be the case
with the Minitaur as well?
Hi eXode,
Please understand that I was only playing a prototype Minitaur,
so nothing's "pissed in snow" yet. But, the unit I tried went
from MIDI Note On Value 0 to 72, and there's a MIDI parameter
that takes the VCOs Up/Down 1 Octave.

Hope that helps.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

godzilla
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by godzilla » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:53 am

well that's how it works with MIDI what about CV?

and could you use both at the same time? offset the pitch using CV by a few octaves to get above middle C?

Is it part of the design that stops it producing higher frequencies? I hope they haven't just limited its usefulness to protect their more expensive products......

Anyway, NICE JOB MOOG!! this product looks awesome, love the style, name, size and layout! Out of the new era moog synths, this one suits me much better than the others!

if it can't reproduce higher frequencies, consider making a similar model in the same size/shape but maybe with different features, eg: A single full-range VCO with more modulation options (different LFO waveforms)
and a third model which could just have 2 channels of analogue sequencing!!!!
complimentary models would be really nice to see

Mr Arkadin
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by Mr Arkadin » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:14 am

I thought it was the way the V/Hz oscillators worked that meant that higher pitches go wonky so aren't useable? MC would know for sure. It's certainly not purposely limited in some way - the Taurus 3 is the same, although you can actually go quite high on it.
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godzilla
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by godzilla » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:46 am

V/hz oscillators?
is that the same as the korg CV standard? as opposed to volts per octave?! does that mean the CV in jack goes through some kind of conversion stage?

After watching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZmeCnf_VyA when he speaks about the 2 VCOs working together at low frequencies unlike normal synths, it makes sense that the higher frequencies would be out of whack

also I wonder about the kind of gate signal the new moog synths take? do they use the old moog style? or the roland style? S-trig and V-trig can never remember which is which....
I'd want to trigger the minitaur via an Sh-101 and not a midi keyboard (cos don't have one :p) is that possible?

Mr Arkadin
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by Mr Arkadin » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:30 am

godzilla wrote:V/hz oscillators?
is that the same as the korg CV standard? as opposed to volts per octave?! does that mean the CV in jack goes through some kind of conversion stage?
[...]
also I wonder about the kind of gate signal the new moog synths take? do they use the old moog style? or the roland style? S-trig and V-trig can never remember which is which....
I'd want to trigger the minitaur via an Sh-101 and not a midi keyboard (cos don't have one :p) is that possible?
Don't know if it's the same as the Korg implementation osc-wise, but yes the Taurus 3 and Minitaur have some internal conversion going on (don't know the details):

From the specs:
"Pitch CV – 1/4" TRS Jack accepts 0 to +5V signal (internally processed for 1 V/Octave) via passive Expression Pedals or CVs."

"Gate – 1/4" Jack accepts a 0 (Off)/ +5V(On) Gate signal to trigger the unit’s EGs." which I think is the usual standard, rather than S-Trig.
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till
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by till » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:42 am

The interacting of the two oscillators has nothing to do with the V/Hz or V/oct scaling.
The original Taurus has a V/Hz function. So the detune is always the very same frequency difference. While all V/Hz synths double the beating frequency with the next higher octave. I am not sure about whether the Taurus 3 is actually working inside with the V/Hz or V/oct plus a detune table. I heard Taurus 3s at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt/Germany where the beating changed proportional with the pitch. So I am assuming, there might be V/oct oscillators with a detune lookup table generated from the apparently very detailed auto-tune data. On a V/Hz synth, the detune is just an added voltage. And because voltage is proportional to frequency (not musical pitch!) here, the beating is always the same frequency on the whole range of the keyboard.

I can't imagine Moog introducing a CV input on a new product, that isn't working V/oct. This wouldn't make sense. The trigger is most likely again a V-Trigger.

Anyway, we will know soon. And I will get one asap! Although I got the T3 here.
I think the Minitaur would be a great addition to my Voyager sound wise if used parallel via MIDI.

Btw: some suggested the name "Moog" for the V/oct scaling ratio after Bob Moog died. So 1 Moog = 1 V/oct. I wonder why even Moog does not refer to this anymore.
keep on turning these Moog knobs

Sequence:
Prodigy * minimoog '79 * Voyager * MF102 * MF103 * MF104z * MP201 * Taurus 3 * Minitaur * Sub Phatty * MF105 * Minimoog 2017+ MUSE * One 16

Mr Arkadin
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by Mr Arkadin » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:55 am

till wrote:The original Taurus has a V/Hz function. [...] I am not sure about whether the Taurus 3 is actually working inside with the V/Hz
As the T3 is a copy of the original Taurus circuit you can be sure it is.
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MC
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by MC » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:10 pm

till wrote:I am not sure about whether the Taurus 3 is actually working inside with the V/Hz or V/oct plus a detune table.
When I asked Cyril Lance he confirmed they were V/Hz
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till
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by till » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:48 pm

Mr Arkadin wrote:As the T3 is a copy of the original Taurus circuit you can be sure it is.
I don't think this is a 100% copy.
There are for sure some technical details different.
They rather copied the function, not each individual component.

Just as the Moog Voyager is not using a 100% copy of the analog filter circuit of the Minimoog component for component.
But the filter in the Voyager is using the very same principle of the original Minimoog D filter.

Open the synths and compare.

There is nothing wrong with copying the function and not using the same components, as long as the sound is right.
And it is right for the Taurus 3.
I own one.
keep on turning these Moog knobs

Sequence:
Prodigy * minimoog '79 * Voyager * MF102 * MF103 * MF104z * MP201 * Taurus 3 * Minitaur * Sub Phatty * MF105 * Minimoog 2017+ MUSE * One 16

Mr Arkadin
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by Mr Arkadin » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:37 pm

till wrote:There is nothing wrong with copying the function and not using the same components, as long as the sound is right.
Well that's two different things. Of course they didn't use the same components, but the V/Hz system is part of the function, what components they used to achieve that I do not know, but it is part of the function and so must have been copied.
till wrote:Just as the Moog Voyager is not using a 100% copy of the analog filter circuit of the Minimoog component for component.
Again, different argument. The Voyager was never touted as a 1:1 copy of the Minimoog D, whereas the Taurus 3 most definitely was, that was the whole selling point. Otherwise they would have just stripped down a Voyager and put pedals on it. I personally would not have bought that version of a Taurus 3.

Anyway, MC has confirmed that Cyril Lance says they are V/Hz.
http://soundcloud.com/luke-antony

andrewh
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by andrewh » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:52 pm

I'd be really interested to know how high it goes. I think I heard an all-minitaur demo that was fairly high, i would say it went at least an octave above middle c...

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timmy
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by timmy » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:01 am

are we talking high enough to make the gangsta whine/funky worm sound?
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Sir Nose
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by Sir Nose » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:16 am

AFAIK, the taurus and taurus 3 OSCs topping out was because of the circuit design. The product description of the minitaur does not state it uses the same OSC design. It adds a square wave, but I don't think the saw will be the same either. Just a guess, but I think they would boast that if it was the case.

Isn't there something about the VCO and VCF and AC coupling causing something or other in the original taurus and the taurus 3?

How does the filter of the taurus 3 differ from the phatty?

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MC
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Re: Octave Range on the Minitaur?

Post by MC » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:43 am

Everybody has been asking this on GS, HC, AH so here's the daily "copy/paste" answer:
"What makes the Taurus synth engine an "analog bass synth" or "What feature(s) was duplicated in the T3 that made the T1 sound so huge?"

AC coupling between VCF and VCA has an inherent 20hz corner boost.
The service manual confirms it. This is an effect that cannot be
duplicated with EQ or addition of pre-filter fundamental sine waves.

OTAs in the VCF feedback path and the VCA. The 3080 and 13700 OTAs
are NOT high fidelity, in fact if you operate them with high amplitude
signals you push the OTAs into non-linearity - that's distortion to
you laymen. The Taurus audio path has distortion designed into it.
Anybody with a 'scope can see the highly curved ramp waveform on the
audio output with the filter wide open. That's why the Taurus synth
engine has such a solid fundamental.

Hot signals into the VCF. The ladder filter will generate ear
pleasing harmonics when pushed and the Taurus exploits this feature.
Coupled with the "lo-fi" OTAs this creates a warm sound.

Optimal RC product when coupling stages. When stages are AC coupled,
the capacitor is a high pass filter and is part of the RC product. If
the wrong value cap is used, the RC product will roll off bass
frequencies. I uncovered this in the Micromoog years ago. The Taurus
is designed such that the RC product of each stage is optimum enough
to pass sufficient bass frequencies.

These circuit traits did not exist in any other Moog synth until the T3.

Some like to claim that the V/hz VCOs have an impact on the sound.
This is a myth. If you took the standard V/oct charged cap core ramp
waveform VCO (IE minimoog) and removed the exponential voltage to
current converter, you wind up with the V/hz Taurus VCO. My PAiA 4700
modular had V/hz VCOs and they were far from the obese bass of the
Taurus.

Wikipedia has an entry claiming that the FET based VCOs are
responsible for the big sound. Another myth. The only purpose of the
sole FET in the Taurus VCO is to reset the charging cap back to zero
to create the periodic ramp waveform. It is not even in the audio
path and has zero impact on the timbre of the VCO. The only effect
the FET has is scaling errors at higher frequencies due to resistance
between drain and source terminals."
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