Tap tempo for the delay?

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Bryan T
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Tap tempo for the delay?

Post by Bryan T » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:33 am

What is the word on using the 201 for adding tap tempo functionality to the delay? I realize it doesn't do it now, but is this planned for a future update?

Thanks,
Bryan

Bryan T
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Post by Bryan T » Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:29 pm

Is no one else interested in this functionality?

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Voltor07
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Post by Voltor07 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:01 pm

I think it would indeed be a cool feature...for those with the MF-104z. I am surprised no one else seems to think so. Perhaps it'll be an added feature in a software update.
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Bryan T
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Post by Bryan T » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:56 pm

Voltor07 wrote:I think it would indeed be a cool feature...for those with the MF-104z. I am surprised no one else seems to think so. Perhaps it'll be an added feature in a software update.


I just bought a 201 on ebay. With that 30% off from Microsoft, it was too good to pass up. I do want some repeatable (no pun intended!) control over the delay time - either tap tempo or via MIDI clock.

Bryan

vier-personen
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Post by vier-personen » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:50 am

tap tempo would be really great, though I wouldn´t pay much for it.

I have a dd-20 for the tapping, but I keep tapping it not in time on purpose.. had my mf-104z only for a week and gigged only once with it, so I can´t tell yet if I will ditch the dd-20 or not, but I definitely won´t ditch the mf-104z - tap tempo or not.

just my 2 €-cents.

Amos
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Post by Amos » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:27 pm

one can't use the MP-201 to provide real tap tampo ability for the delay.
The reasons are slightly technical, but in essence the only way to affect the delay time without serious modifications to the MF-104z is by using the delay time CV input... and this input is not calibrated to some precise delay time per volt, so it will be different from one delay to another.
That means that even if you wrote some code in the multi-pedal to give a specific output voltage in relation to tap tempo, you could not guarantee that the resulting delay time would be correct.

If the delay was modified to have a dedicated delay clock signal input, and if the multipedal code was modified to allow a delay clock signal output, then we might be getting somewhere. Otherwise, the products as-is will not do this.

For any one given delay pedal (at a given ambient temperature), there is a relationship between delay time CV input and the actual delay time... what this means is that you can create multipedal presets where you adjust the expression voltage output to give you a specific delay time on your individual delay... you can save this as a preset on the Multi-Pedal and thus have a saved "preset" delay rate. In fact, you could program a heel value and toe value so as to get two preset delay times per MP-201 preset. This isn't the same thing as tap tempo but I bet some folks will find it pretty useful all the same.

Cheers,

Amos

Bryan T
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Post by Bryan T » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:44 pm

Amos wrote:one can't use the MP-201 to provide real tap tampo ability for the delay. The reasons are slightly technical, but in essence the only way to affect the delay time without serious modifications to the MF-104z is by using the delay time CV input... and this input is not calibrated to some precise delay time per volt, so it will be different from one delay to another.
That means that even if you wrote some code in the multi-pedal to give a specific output voltage in relation to tap tempo, you could not guarantee that the resulting delay time would be correct.


Amos,

Thanks for the reply. Your response makes sense to me, but I wonder if it would be possible to incorporate a user set parameter to tweak the voltages so that tap tempo could work.

Here's my thinking: I tap the tap tempo at 120 bpm. That gets converted to some fixed voltage that I'd expect to yield a repeat every half second. However, with my delay that voltage results in repeats at 130 bpm. So, I tweak the parameter to adjust the voltage to get there. Now, I'm not sure if the relationship between the fudge factor and the delay time is linear, exponential, or something else, but it seems like it could be figured out.

I realize I'm in the minority in wanting this functionality, but it would be really useful for me to be able to tap a tempo into the 201 and get a corresponding delay time out of the 104. It would be even better if I could also send it a MIDI clock and get delay times. Subdivisions of beats would also be really handy - quarter, eight, sixteenth, dotted eighths, dotted sixteenths, etc.

Thanks,
Bryan

Alien8
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Post by Alien8 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:05 am

I realize I'm in the minority in wanting this functionality


Not really. I would love to have a similar feature, but for now I'm just using the expression pedal to blend between tempo's. It's definitely not an exact science :)
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Post by Amos » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:04 pm

Bryan T wrote:
Amos wrote:Here's my thinking: I tap the tap tempo at 120 bpm. That gets converted to some fixed voltage that I'd expect to yield a repeat every half second. However, with my delay that voltage results in repeats at 130 bpm. So, I tweak the parameter to adjust the voltage to get there. Now, I'm not sure if the relationship between the fudge factor and the delay time is linear, exponential, or something else, but it seems like it could be figured out.


Bryan, this is along the lines of something I've been thinking myself. Doing it exactly as you describe is pretty labor-intensive, and also raises the question of how the actual delay tempo is to be measured... by ear against a metronome? This could get you pretty close but any human error will throw off the calculation, and this error has the opportunity to multiply since of course you'll need multiple data points in order to calculate a fudge factor / transfer function from tap-tempo into voltage into delay tempo. So, while a method like this might be workable, it's not the "killer app" yet. However, it's definitely a part of the puzzle.

Rest assured, there are multiple ways to get where we want to go with this, and I am keeping it all in mind for future development. I predict we'll have a tap-tempo delay option one way or another, before too terribly long. Thanks for the good ideas!

-Amos
Last edited by Amos on Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bryan T
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Post by Bryan T » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:10 pm

Amos wrote:I predict we'll have a tap-tempo delay option one way or another, before too terribly long. Thanks for the good ideas!

-Amos


:D

peterkadar
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Post by peterkadar » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:44 am

Oh man, I have a pair of MF-104z's, and I would LOVE a tap temp for them!

I'd love to be able to have a tap tempo device that would sync LFO's of the moogerfoogers, the Murf tempo, and the delay pedals... Imagine being able to sync that stuff up with a live drummer. That would be so funky it would probably violate the Geneva Convention.

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Post by EricK » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:59 pm

Bryan T wrote:I realize I'm in the minority in wanting this functionality, but it would be really useful for me to be able to tap a tempo into the 201 and get a corresponding delay time out of the 104. Bryan


I don't think that you are necessarily in the minority in wanting that feature. I woud love to be able to tap tempo my delay as well.

One of the most difficult things I think is to try to sync an LFO to the tempo. On my Micro, the rate is SOOOOOOOOOO precise that it takes some surgical motor precision to get the pot exactly where you once had it. Any deviation from exact will result in some drift somewhere down the line. Were talking 1/8th of 1/16th of a turn of the rate knob will mess you up, especially when you start getting in the upper frequency register.
While the delay isn't quite that difficult, it would be really nice to be able to dial in a BPM with little effort.

I think an interesting test would be to take 2 delay pedals and turn them to X o'clock and see how they respond timewise.

Eric
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Bryan B
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Post by Bryan B » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:12 pm

I agree. Please bring us a tap tempo or clock input for the delay! That is the last Mooger I am waiting to get. I would buy it in a heartbeat with that feature added in.

P.S. I love you Moog, keep up the good work!
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vier-personen
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Post by vier-personen » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:27 am

Bryan T wrote:
Amos wrote:I predict we'll have a tap-tempo delay option one way or another, before too terribly long. Thanks for the good ideas!

-Amos


:D



:D :D

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RichardK
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Post by RichardK » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:50 pm

Amos wrote:Rest assured, there are multiple ways to get where we want to go with this, and I am keeping it all in mind for future development. I predict we'll have a tap-tempo delay option one way or another, before too terribly long. Thanks for the good ideas!

-Amos


Just making a really newbie suggestion, showing no clue as to how the delay works...

Could an LFO "trigger" the delay, thus making the decay the part that isn't synched, but the actual sound trigger point synchronised? Since the Voyager appears to offer a MIDI sync for the LFO (I haven't checked exactly how this works but it appears to behave in a suitably logical fashion) and the 351 gives a square wave LFO out from the Voyager...
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