Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

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kidgloves2
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by kidgloves2 » Sun May 30, 2010 5:32 pm

I just wish Roland's V-Piano technology becomes more affordable. Like in the 2k range. I tried one in a store and it's mind blowing. No velocity switching and 100% expressive because of it.

Also, and I've said this in other places, I hope they model the Fender Rhodes. Model the tines, tonebars, hammers, pickups etc.. Then we could have a digital rhodes without velocity switching. Also more true to the real sound. Maybe call it the V-Rhodes. Or even better, put it under the same hood as the V-piano.

EricK
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by EricK » Sun May 30, 2010 6:03 pm

Well they used to own the rights to the Rhodes sound, but in my research, I think that most people agree that the Yamaha Motif had the best emulation of the Rhodes.

They won't be doing anything more with the Rhodes since the new Rhodes company now makes REAL Rhodes pianos.
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kidgloves2
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by kidgloves2 » Sun May 30, 2010 6:24 pm

EricK wrote:Well they used to own the rights to the Rhodes sound, but in my research, I think that most people agree that the Yamaha Motif had the best emulation of the Rhodes.

They won't be doing anything more with the Rhodes since the new Rhodes company now makes REAL Rhodes pianos.
Did the Yamaha use samples or did they model the rhodes?

Rhodes makes real rhodes pianos....for abot $4500 and up. :(

Roland could do so much by using their cosm technology to model the Rhodes. Extremely long tines for more sustain. Different tine material. Different kinds of pickups. Different kinds of tone bar materials. They could create E-Pianos that don't even exist. Just like the V-Piano creates Pianos that don't exist. How about double tines for each note? then the ability to custom tune those double tines? Or triple tines for that matter.

They could blow the Motif out of the water.

Electrong
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by Electrong » Mon May 31, 2010 12:19 am

It would be cool if Roland and Korg got back into the analog market. But their current products, while perhaps or perhaps not being what the average Moog forum member wants, is serving a very large chunk of today's synth market. So they must be doing something right currently. It comes down to dollars and sense. If r&d and production costs don't warrant going back in time to put out a real analog synth, it ain't gonna happen.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

EricK
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by EricK » Mon May 31, 2010 1:29 am

Im not a user of Yamaha, but I did some research on the Fenderrhodes forum and around the internet and Just about everyone I have come across that is a Rhodes enthusiast and keyboarddist said hands down that Yamaha emulated the Rhodes the best. THe Motif won hands down.

I asked the question "Which ROland keyboard got the best Rhodes sound?" and everyone pretty much said NONE and insisted the Yamaha. A side by side comparison of a '71 suitcase seventy-three to the Roland RD 500 (while they did have the right to use the Rhodes name) proved that it didn't really come close.

Now they still do have a version of the Rhodes, now labeled something like Vintage Electric Piano or Tine Piano or something like that. So they do include the Rhodes sound, but like Yamaha, they can't say Rhodes. For Wurlitzer, they use Wurly or something so as not to get sued.

So it is still there, on their higher end workstation pianos. THe RD 700 probably has one. I can only assume that the Rhodes sound is modeled and not sampled.

Its there and will do the job, but compared to other manufacturers and a genuine Rhodes, its not the same.

If it works, though, it works.

I do think that the Fantom G8 has a Supernatural expansion card that you can buy that will specifically focus on developing the Electric Piano sounds. THey have one for Percussion, and horns also. You can choose where the tine is in relation to the pickup (like on a real one, making the instrument have more bite or more mellow) and I think that you can even choose if you want rubber or felt hammers (indicative of certain year model Rhodes). Its nice.

FOr a gigging professional, you can't beat a workstation like that.



Eric
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by Unfiltered » Mon May 31, 2010 2:14 am

The V-Piano is an amazing synth, but way too expensive. I never understand buying something like a Fantom that you can just download a clone of, and spend the money on nice fat analog sounds. Analog modelers make sound that emulate analog, so obviously they are saying " we sound as close to the real thing while still being fake" but VA sounds nothing like analog, unless you run it through analog, like a tape delay or something. I too perused youtube for V-synth videos, and everything sounded cold, sterile, and fake. I wonder what that digital synth Moog worked on would of sounded like, and what a modern version would sound like, because maybe one day digital will sound as good as analog.

Somebody please post a link of a digital synth (besides the V-piano or the new B-3) from any era that sounds as good as a Voyager and I will bow down to digital.

Electrong
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by Electrong » Mon May 31, 2010 10:48 am

Roland and Korg both have some really good analog emulation going on. People are still buying Rhodes used or going with a Nord for electric piano emulation. Not necessary to fake a Rhodes before you can go back into an analog synth, so I'm not really following how an effective Rhodes emulator has much to do with bringing back a true analog synth. Korg had some good analogs but they're much more of a player on the digital front than they ever were on the analog area. Roland had much more analog synth stuff, with the sh series and then the jupiter and juno series although they did implement DCO's and eventually VA technology.
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EricK
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by EricK » Mon May 31, 2010 1:23 pm

Im not an Analog purist. I love it, and Ill choose it over digital any day, but comparing the two really isn't productive.

I submit that few can really tell the difference between analog and digital. Saying this I know a lot of you may disagree, but outside of this forum and a few others where we are all concentrated, I seriously doubt that a large percentage of the general public actually can tell the difference between a waveform that is generated by a digital machine or an analogue one.

Its kind of like a mistake that is buried in one of our songs...it might be extremely apparent to us, but not everyone will notice.

I have recorded with a V-Synth and it will put out some extremely deep and punishing bass rivaling that of the MicroMoog.

Let me digress slightly. A lot of the good folks here are clamoring for an Analog Polysynth from Moog. They want it to be small and relatively inexpensive. This type of request is coming from people who want to gig with it, who don't want to carry around a huge behemoth, and whose studios are already crammed with enough stuff to make the meter maid really happy to come around.

Where else can you get a single unit that will do Pianos, strings horns, Synth, FX, Clavis, and generally everything else? Digital does it and digiital only. It has its place, maybe not in your style of music or in your studio, but its a very practical solution for our sometimes impractical ambitions (like secretly wishing for 25 fully functional, vintage keyboards, synths and electric pianos of all types).

It is because of this that a major movement by the leaders in the digital industry are NOT going to return to analogue. The prevalance of VA and the oh so popular "Downloadable clones" keep our analog market a small one in comparison. Im preaching to the choir now I know, but the very nature of Analog doesn't lend itself to the millions of amateur musicians that are up and coming and on tight budgets.

I really would rather see things continue as they are now. Do you really want Roland to return to Analog?

I think that its perfect as it is. With a few companies pumping out fantastic instruments in batches of dozens, rather than a McDonald analog synth company pumping out crap products with poor customer service. If Roland Yamaha and Korg did this, Do you think Roger Arrick, or Tom Oberheim or even Moog would be able to compete with that?

Do you really want to see everyone having access to analog synths? Companies might but if all of the guitar players in the world traded their Strats for Moog's, what would be so special about OUR sound? Everyone and their grandmother would have an Analogue synth and then everyone would get tired of it and dump them in pawnshops.


With my Art I try to draw from every possible source I can. If its digital or analog or software, in the end it is about expressing yourself and the means with which you choose to do so. I peronally wouldn't reject one over the other if it serves its function like the other one can't. If you want the taste for Beef, you don't buy Lamb, though they will both fill your gullet just as well.

E
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alamilla
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by alamilla » Mon May 31, 2010 3:18 pm

^ That's actually a pretty fair comment.

Electrong
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by Electrong » Mon May 31, 2010 3:50 pm

I think Roland took a hit from Yamaha when Yamaha introduced the DX7. The writing was on the wall for analogues when FM synthesis, sampling technology and digital technology began to show its immense versatility, and Roland was already putting DCO's and other digital technology with their analogues. And don't forget that it's not just the people on a budget. Every well known keyboardist has something digital in the setup, with very few exceptions. Analog has a place but so does digital. I like the DSI concept of the poly evolver utilizing both. I see the possibility of both Korg and Roland utilizing analog technology in the future, although most of the eggs are in the digital basket.

A move completely back to analog would be like a builder of skyscrapers going back and building circus tents.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

LivePsy
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by LivePsy » Mon May 31, 2010 6:52 pm

EricK wrote:Do you really want to see everyone having access to analog synths?
You may have gone a bit over the top there Erik :) Everyone should have access to analog technology if they want it. The limiting factor is "Do people really want to pay the price of a Voyager for a mono synth"? That's where Moog purchasers are separated from the crowd. And its a good question if you compare analog with REAL digital synths. Forget the big three Roland, Kord and Yamaha, these often have sloppy sounds from don't care programmers. The V-Synth could be great, but modulate anything with low audio frequencies and the cracks become apparent - its stepping in an ugly way instead of smoothly modulating. And hopelessly lame envolopes too. There's either zero decay or the next slope is too long witho nothing inbetween (whereas the Moog envelopes have near infinite control). Same with the Korg Radias technologies too.

No, the REAL digital synths are the Accesses, old Nords, things like that. Really great sounds and great filters. If you are going to compare analog to digital, at least compare analog with GOOD digital.

B
I've stopped talking now.

EricK
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by EricK » Mon May 31, 2010 9:46 pm

Why is that over the top?

If everyone had a Voyager....and I mean everyone, who would really want to hear another Voyager patch?
Im not saying that there should be limited access, anyone that wants one can get one now. But I have a tendancy to believe that if analog synths were mass produced, they would probably suffer in the same ways as the Digital synths do. Just crank them out for profit with less regard for hand matched componants and quality assurance.

If Analog synths became as commonplace as everything else, it would deter from their uniqueness.

I guess what it boils down to is similar to when you have a new genre of music that actually means something then get watered down and corporatized and goes from underground avant garde art to exploited mainstream pop.

Tis my opinion.
Edited for clarification.
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by Unfiltered » Mon May 31, 2010 11:13 pm

I think Eric's comment was a tad over the top. If everyone had a voyager, imagine the near infinite bank of patches we could share, with new and exciting sounds coming from the same instrument. I dare say no one has even scratched the surface of what a voyager can do, unless one devotes hours a day for years. The mod capabilities are vast, especially when you add foogers and outboard gear. That said, the analog vs. digital is a pointless debate, but my point is that almost all digital sounds can be downloaded and played with a cheap midi controller. And I dare say very few of them will sound as good as a Moog. If you have any posts to the contrary, please post because i cant find a single digital patch that sounds as good as my voyager. As far as Korg, Yamaha, etc., fuk 'em all, they are huge evil corporations with subpar products that sound like they all came from the early 80's digital revolution. That's why we all love Moog, DSI, and Tom Oberheim, they make products that are reasonably priced and sound quasi to fully-orgasmic.

kidgloves2
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by kidgloves2 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:38 am

Eric made some good points. I agree with a lot of it.

I just remember a time when I wished Moog would re-release the minimoog. Not only did they, but they made it better than I could have imagined.

I would love a true, analog, modern Jupiter-8.

Screw Korg, I don't really care if they go analog again.

And a big thank you to Moog for kicking so much ass.

Electrong
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Re: Should Roland and Korg get back in the analog market?

Post by Electrong » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:41 am

I believe all players should be entitled to analog.
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