Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

In a Moog Mood? Here's a forum for discussion of general Moog topics.

Would you buy a Polyphonic Moog?

Most definately!
39
63%
Definately not!
9
15%
Maybe, if.... (please specify)
12
19%
Only if.....(specify)
2
3%
 
Total votes: 62

MoogMusicFan81
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by MoogMusicFan81 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:00 pm

Would anyone care to gloss over Dave Luce's original Apollo designs and try to reevaluate them?

~Ben

User avatar
MC
Posts: 2889
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:20 pm
Location: Secluded Tranquil Country

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by MC » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:12 pm

MoogMusicFan81 wrote:Would anyone care to gloss over Dave Luce's original Apollo designs and try to reevaluate them?
Funny that you mention that, I happened to have my Polymoog folder out tonight and saw the schematics for the Apollo.

Problem is - they're incomplete. We have everything Luce has, he has no more.

I attempted to restore the Apollo for Audities.org back in 1999 and it quickly became futile. The power supply was scavenged out of the unit years ago, the net effect that the power rails are unknown. Knowing Luce's design mindset, he used multiple power rails. Without a complete set of documents it was impossible to know what each rail was. The Apollo was completely wirewrapped (!!!) which does not withstand age very well, and the fact it has toured with ELP there is a very good probablity of broken wires and it would be impossible to find them in that maze without breaking other wires in the process.

Frankly, the Apollo architecture is very crude. Single oscillator, ramp waveform only, simple and uninteresting filtering, and litle in the modulation department. Pretty much a glorified TOS organ that happened to have crude piano presets.

I was playing with my Polymoog tonight and it reaffirmed my assessment that it isn't a proper polyphonic. Palette of sounds are still way too limited due to its TOS architecture (no way to implement voice modulations) and a single master filter doomed it. Best used as a string or pad machine playing block chords, and not much else.
Gear list: '04 Saturn Ion, John Deere X300 tractor, ganged set of seven reel mowers for 3 acres of lawn, herd of sheep for backup lawn mowers, two tiger cats for mouse population control Oh you meant MUSIC gear Oops I hit the 255 character limi

anoteoftruth
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:34 am
Location: Edmonton, AB
Contact:

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by anoteoftruth » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:28 am

goldphinga wrote:What would be great is to include Bob's/ John Eton's touch sensitive keys (keys that had pressure/movement sensors actually on the ends of them!!)

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... ?t=1191687
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/video/index.ssf?eaton

I've heard John Eaton say that it was'nt relaly feasable to mass produce, since apparently its extremely hard to play accurately.
Moog Voyager RME / Moog LP SE 2 / Nord Rack 1 / Microkorg / Korg ER-1 / Triggerfinger / Rocktron Banshee talk box / Ableton live / Guru / Lots of non-electric musical instruments.

User avatar
Klopfgeist
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:50 pm
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Contact:

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by Klopfgeist » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:39 am

I went to the museum of making music event with john eaton, and honestly the multitouch keyboard isn't that impressive. He was saying how it doesn't have the right software to match it's capabilities (I don't know if he has been living in a cave where reaktor and max/msp don't exist or what) but the buchla controller-thing is about a billion gajillion more times interesting.
So this thing only plays one note?

http://soundcloud.com/unarius
http://www.youtube.com/user/plague1715

MoogMusicFan81
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by MoogMusicFan81 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:03 am

MC wrote:
MoogMusicFan81 wrote:Would anyone care to gloss over Dave Luce's original Apollo designs and try to reevaluate them?
Funny that you mention that, I happened to have my Polymoog folder out tonight and saw the schematics for the Apollo.

Problem is - they're incomplete. We have everything Luce has, he has no more.

I attempted to restore the Apollo for Audities.org back in 1999 and it quickly became futile. The power supply was scavenged out of the unit years ago, the net effect that the power rails are unknown. Knowing Luce's design mindset, he used multiple power rails. Without a complete set of documents it was impossible to know what each rail was. The Apollo was completely wirewrapped (!!!) which does not withstand age very well, and the fact it has toured with ELP there is a very good probablity of broken wires and it would be impossible to find them in that maze without breaking other wires in the process.

Frankly, the Apollo architecture is very crude. Single oscillator, ramp waveform only, simple and uninteresting filtering, and litle in the modulation department. Pretty much a glorified TOS organ that happened to have crude piano presets.

I was playing with my Polymoog tonight and it reaffirmed my assessment that it isn't a proper polyphonic. Palette of sounds are still way too limited due to its TOS architecture (no way to implement voice modulations) and a single master filter doomed it. Best used as a string or pad machine playing block chords, and not much else.
That itself - especially the jungle of wires - could be the template for a redesign right there...

User avatar
latigid on
Posts: 1579
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:47 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by latigid on » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:17 am

MoogMusicFan81, I don't really get it. I can't quite tell whether you're trolling or not, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Is there any want or need for a re-released Apollo/Polymoog apart from nostalgia's sake? Is it a particular sound you are after?

Who would a "Polymoog" (referring to the original models) appeal to? Do you think thousands would be sold?

If it's a Top Octave System divide-down architecture you want, I'd say look for a home organ or a Korg Delta: much cheaper, simpler and probably more reliable.

I'd say a vast, vast majority of synthesists would take a limited polyphony, but "discrete" oscillator design Moog polysynth. Having a "synth per key" is completely superfluous and is asking for reliability and consistency issues.

MoogMusicFan81
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by MoogMusicFan81 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:37 am

latigid on wrote:MoogMusicFan81, I don't really get it. I can't quite tell whether you're trolling or not, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Is there any want or need for a re-released Apollo/Polymoog apart from nostalgia's sake? Is it a particular sound you are after?

Who would a "Polymoog" (referring to the original models) appeal to? Do you think thousands would be sold?

If it's a Top Octave System divide-down architecture you want, I'd say look for a home organ or a Korg Delta: much cheaper, simpler and probably more reliable.

I'd say a vast, vast majority of synthesists would take a limited polyphony, but "discrete" oscillator design Moog polysynth. Having a "synth per key" is completely superfluous and is asking for reliability and consistency issues.
I am terribly sorry if you guys think I am trolling here, but, do you really agree that Moog should release a new polysynth?

However, I'd like the best of both worlds (Apollo and Polymoog), but with more reliable components/internals that can possibly churn out the sounds of these two. I am also a fan of Keith Emerson and his use of the Apollo (and the monophonic Lyra) on the Emerson, Lake & Palmer album Brain Salad Surgery.

~Ben

EricK
Posts: 5974
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by EricK » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:13 am

27 out of 47 votes on this particular thread already answered whether they would agree that they want a polysynth and state that they would definately buy one.
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/

I think I hear the mothership coming.

User avatar
MC
Posts: 2889
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:20 pm
Location: Secluded Tranquil Country

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by MC » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:47 pm

MoogMusicFan81 wrote:However, I'd like the best of both worlds (Apollo and Polymoog), but with more reliable components/internals that can possibly churn out the sounds of these two. I am also a fan of Keith Emerson and his use of the Apollo (and the monophonic Lyra) on the Emerson, Lake & Palmer album Brain Salad Surgery.
You know not what you asketh for.

I want a Moog Polyphonic, but I want a Memorymoog not the Apollo/Polymoog.

I have owned a Polymoog since 1984 and a Memorymoog Plus since 1986.

Compared to a proper voice assignment system like the Memorymoog, the Polymoog isn't capable of 1,000,000th of the sound palette that the Memorymoog can do.

The Polymoog can do strings and pads but cannot do brass, horns, hard syncs, percussion, monophonic screaming leads, sound FX, filter sweeps, so much more.

The Memorymoog has six voice polyphony each voice being a full featured synthesizer voice with independent VCOs, VCFs, and VCAs as well as voice modulation. The Polymoog is fully polyphonic with two VCOs per key, but the extremely limiting feature is its master VCF. You cannot get monophonic phrasing on a polymoog. Another foible that doomed the Polymoog is that its TOS system is incapable of voice modulation which opens up a world of sound palettes. While it features full polyphony with two VCOs per key, there is no way to modulate pitches or waveshape of independent keys. Yes the PM features an LFO per wave, but you cannot modulate wave/pitch with an EG, a key to brass and fat synth sounds.

When I discovered the world of palettes on my Memorymoog using voice modulation, my Polymoog became a neglected instrument. Until you experiment with the two, you cannot apprehend why they are so vastly different.

Your nostalgia in BSS is well placed but the Apollo isn't as featured as you may think. Most of the synth sounds are Emerson's modular, minimoog, and the Lyra. 'Benny the Bouncer" features the Apollo - but only that tinny clavvy-sound in the intro and rhythm. The piano solo in that song is a piano and not the Apollo because the latter only had 48 keys functional and is not velocity sensitive.
Gear list: '04 Saturn Ion, John Deere X300 tractor, ganged set of seven reel mowers for 3 acres of lawn, herd of sheep for backup lawn mowers, two tiger cats for mouse population control Oh you meant MUSIC gear Oops I hit the 255 character limi

MoogMusicFan81
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by MoogMusicFan81 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:48 pm

On second thought, I would buy a new Moog polysynth if it is the Apollo, Polymoog, Memorymoog and Memorymoog Plus all rolled into one. Take the sounds of all four, please.

~Ben

User avatar
analoghaze
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:31 pm
Location: analog paradise
Contact:

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by analoghaze » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:01 pm

EricK wrote:27 out of 47 votes on this particular thread already answered whether they would agree that they want a polysynth and state that they would definately buy one.
A poll means nothing.
Expecially when Moog has not released any info at all in regards to synthesizer specs and more importantly price.

Trust me, I know from experience. I "settled" for a Voyager. Crazy thaught. Most Voyager oners do not feel they "settled" for the piece of gear. I have been a member here for long enough that more than a few of you know my love for the Voyager synthesizer.
What most here do not know is that I was actually saving for a MacBeth M5 up until Ken anounced the actual price of the unit. Over $5,000 was simply out of my range.
It was one of the hardest decisions of my life. I consider Ken MacBeth a personal friend and own Moroco #6 of 20. I would have loved to support him on the M5.
I settled for the Voyager people.
Really.
Think about that.
Anyone can post in a thread and vote in a poll.
When it is time to pony up the cash, things change.
It did for me, and I am quite outspoken about my love for the Voyager.
I have absolute no doubt in mind that there will be people who would pay $7,000 for a Moog poly.
I would also bet that more than a few who voted they would buy one sight unseen and price unknown will take their hard earned money and spend it on a P08.
Damn..... I really really wanted an M5. For the time it took to save up for the Voyager, the M5 seemed impossible to get. I settled.


:(

I love the Voyager.
Music can Name the Unnamable and Communicate the Unknowable.

'I am... everything is... changed... they're calling... your face... interwoven... who is...' Patient mumbles inaudibly to a tune (sounds like 'Thanks for the memory).

Unisonic
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by Unisonic » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:24 pm

Keep costs lower and generate more revenue - rack Memorymoog , VST editor and USB audio.

EricK
Posts: 5974
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by EricK » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:23 pm

Well he asked a question that is already been answered by people and the evidence is right there for reference.
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/

I think I hear the mothership coming.

Electrong
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:11 am
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by Electrong » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:48 pm

MC wrote:
MoogMusicFan81 wrote:However, I'd like the best of both worlds (Apollo and Polymoog), but with more reliable components/internals that can possibly churn out the sounds of these two. I am also a fan of Keith Emerson and his use of the Apollo (and the monophonic Lyra) on the Emerson, Lake & Palmer album Brain Salad Surgery.
You know not what you asketh for.

I want a Moog Polyphonic, but I want a Memorymoog not the Apollo/Polymoog.

I have owned a Polymoog since 1984 and a Memorymoog Plus since 1986.

Compared to a proper voice assignment system like the Memorymoog, the Polymoog isn't capable of 1,000,000th of the sound palette that the Memorymoog can do.

The Polymoog can do strings and pads but cannot do brass, horns, hard syncs, percussion, monophonic screaming leads, sound FX, filter sweeps, so much more.

The Memorymoog has six voice polyphony each voice being a full featured synthesizer voice with independent VCOs, VCFs, and VCAs as well as voice modulation. The Polymoog is fully polyphonic with two VCOs per key, but the extremely limiting feature is its master VCF. You cannot get monophonic phrasing on a polymoog. Another foible that doomed the Polymoog is that its TOS system is incapable of voice modulation which opens up a world of sound palettes. While it features full polyphony with two VCOs per key, there is no way to modulate pitches or waveshape of independent keys. Yes the PM features an LFO per wave, but you cannot modulate wave/pitch with an EG, a key to brass and fat synth sounds.

When I discovered the world of palettes on my Memorymoog using voice modulation, my Polymoog became a neglected instrument. Until you experiment with the two, you cannot apprehend why they are so vastly different.

Your nostalgia in BSS is well placed but the Apollo isn't as featured as you may think. Most of the synth sounds are Emerson's modular, minimoog, and the Lyra. 'Benny the Bouncer" features the Apollo - but only that tinny clavvy-sound in the intro and rhythm. The piano solo in that song is a piano and not the Apollo because the latter only had 48 keys functional and is not velocity sensitive.
This guy knows what he's talking about.

What makes the Voyager a current instrument is everything that has nothing to do with the Minimoog model D. It has all that plus all the other cool stuff. If Moog introduced a Polyphonic synth it would need to be current, not a copy of something that old. The technology is there, why not use it? And, despite 27 people saying they would buy it sight unseen, Moog Music would certainly be sure they had a product that appeals to today's musician. I think most people with any sense of the value of their money is going to look at it and listen to it, and they will need to understand just how it will help them make music better.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

MoogMusicFan81
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:09 pm

Re: Polyphonic Moog Feature Request

Post by MoogMusicFan81 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:14 pm

Electrong wrote:
MC wrote:
MoogMusicFan81 wrote:However, I'd like the best of both worlds (Apollo and Polymoog), but with more reliable components/internals that can possibly churn out the sounds of these two. I am also a fan of Keith Emerson and his use of the Apollo (and the monophonic Lyra) on the Emerson, Lake & Palmer album Brain Salad Surgery.
You know not what you asketh for.

I want a Moog Polyphonic, but I want a Memorymoog not the Apollo/Polymoog.

I have owned a Polymoog since 1984 and a Memorymoog Plus since 1986.

Compared to a proper voice assignment system like the Memorymoog, the Polymoog isn't capable of 1,000,000th of the sound palette that the Memorymoog can do.

The Polymoog can do strings and pads but cannot do brass, horns, hard syncs, percussion, monophonic screaming leads, sound FX, filter sweeps, so much more.

The Memorymoog has six voice polyphony each voice being a full featured synthesizer voice with independent VCOs, VCFs, and VCAs as well as voice modulation. The Polymoog is fully polyphonic with two VCOs per key, but the extremely limiting feature is its master VCF. You cannot get monophonic phrasing on a polymoog. Another foible that doomed the Polymoog is that its TOS system is incapable of voice modulation which opens up a world of sound palettes. While it features full polyphony with two VCOs per key, there is no way to modulate pitches or waveshape of independent keys. Yes the PM features an LFO per wave, but you cannot modulate wave/pitch with an EG, a key to brass and fat synth sounds.

When I discovered the world of palettes on my Memorymoog using voice modulation, my Polymoog became a neglected instrument. Until you experiment with the two, you cannot apprehend why they are so vastly different.

Your nostalgia in BSS is well placed but the Apollo isn't as featured as you may think. Most of the synth sounds are Emerson's modular, minimoog, and the Lyra. 'Benny the Bouncer" features the Apollo - but only that tinny clavvy-sound in the intro and rhythm. The piano solo in that song is a piano and not the Apollo because the latter only had 48 keys functional and is not velocity sensitive.
This guy knows what he's talking about.

What makes the Voyager a current instrument is everything that has nothing to do with the Minimoog model D. It has all that plus all the other cool stuff. If Moog introduced a Polyphonic synth it would need to be current, not a copy of something that old. The technology is there, why not use it? And, despite 27 people saying they would buy it sight unseen, Moog Music would certainly be sure they had a product that appeals to today's musician. I think most people with any sense of the value of their money is going to look at it and listen to it, and they will need to understand just how it will help them make music better.
Again, if Moog were ever to do a polysynth, it would have all the functionality and sounds of the Polymoog and Memorymoog and a lot more. That, I believe, is what current synthesizer players want from a new Moog polysynth.

~Ben

Post Reply