Gidday all,
Am new here; have searched the forum and see some of you are familiar with the IIIC and Constellation, and with the above performance by ELP.
Have recently uploaded a xcription of this piece from the ‘Welcome Back...’ album to the Yahoo ‘Keith_Emerson’ group. Not sure if I can get it up here; it’s in pdf format – anyway it’s over there.
The performance was from Feb ’74. The question is: is it possible for anyone to tell whether and where the synths are IIIC or Constellation as appropriate? Currently I’ve simply labelled all the synth parts as IIIC / Constellation. With help from the folks at the other group, I’ve annotated a probable switch from IIIC to Constellation at the ‘Minotaur’ quote, and where the IIIC presumably continues with the pedal point drone and associated ribbon-controlled filter sweeps. Then I wonder maybe when the Hammond comes in he goes back to the IIIC for the ‘Tarkus’ march theme.
Any advice will be appreciated.
cya, Raymon
Emerson ‘Aquatarkus’ voicings question
Nice job on the trans. 
The section that starts Aqua of is all IIIc ( ther than the opening Hammond line) Keith goes through a few “presets” This was posted on another list years ago… After the bass guitar feed back he disconnects two of the OSC’s from the keyboard and they just drone. The solo 9 all quoted form Dick Hyman’s “The Minotaur” is a single sine wave on the IIIc. For the next section he reconnect the other two osc’s and starts to to descend dows the keyboard with the glide on. When the part has the wide open filter nad “heavy” bass tone, he is doubling the part on the MiniMoog Model D, really cool when he plays counter parts. The rest after it’s doubled is all IIC and Hammond.
It sounds like he uses the ribbon controller on Mass right after the solo on the Hammond
The Constellation was a proposed system Moog was going to bring out that had the Lyra ( the monophonic synth that was kind of a MiniMoog on steroids) the Apollo ( polyphonic prototype that became the poly Moog) and the Taurus Bass pedals. Keith only toured and recorded with the Lyra and Apollo. In that concert the only palce you’ll hear the two are Jerusalem/ Toccata and Karn Evil 9 Third impression.
The section that starts Aqua of is all IIIc ( ther than the opening Hammond line) Keith goes through a few “presets” This was posted on another list years ago… After the bass guitar feed back he disconnects two of the OSC’s from the keyboard and they just drone. The solo 9 all quoted form Dick Hyman’s “The Minotaur” is a single sine wave on the IIIc. For the next section he reconnect the other two osc’s and starts to to descend dows the keyboard with the glide on. When the part has the wide open filter nad “heavy” bass tone, he is doubling the part on the MiniMoog Model D, really cool when he plays counter parts
. The rest after it’s doubled is all IIC and Hammond. It sounds like he uses the ribbon controller on Mass right after the solo on the Hammond
The Constellation was a proposed system Moog was going to bring out that had the Lyra ( the monophonic synth that was kind of a MiniMoog on steroids) the Apollo ( polyphonic prototype that became the poly Moog) and the Taurus Bass pedals. Keith only toured and recorded with the Lyra and Apollo. In that concert the only palce you’ll hear the two are Jerusalem/ Toccata and Karn Evil 9 Third impression.Gidday Brian,
Thanks so much for the detailed reply. That answers a lot of questions.
The synth solos in that performance contain some of Emerson’s finest moments imo. I’m a piano player so my xcription efforts are mostly on his piano performances – but the WBMF Aquatarkus is such a great favourite of mine I had to write it out to see exactly what he was doing. The other grand Emerson synth solo favourites of mine are those in ‘Trilogy’ which I’ve also written out and will post on the other site eventually.
More questions for you please:
You mention ‘bass guitar feedback’. Are you referring to m. 84ff? For Lake is still playing his E flat – F ostinato there so I don’t understand.
When you say ‘next section... descend... with the glide on’ do you mean m. 226ff?
Would you know how the descending chromatic passages against the slowly ascending notes are done in m. 306ff? It can’t all be done on the IIIC can it? Is that the portion you refer to as ‘Mass’?
Thanks for the info on the Constellation – had previously thought maybe the Taurus was doing the drone, and that the wide open filter ‘heavy’ bass tone you mentioned was done with the Apollo since there are counter parts. Your comments all make sense for I was told the Constellation was out of reach of the IIIC on that tour, and not knowing the Minimoog was in use I didn’t know what to think.
cya, Raymon
Thanks so much for the detailed reply. That answers a lot of questions.
The synth solos in that performance contain some of Emerson’s finest moments imo. I’m a piano player so my xcription efforts are mostly on his piano performances – but the WBMF Aquatarkus is such a great favourite of mine I had to write it out to see exactly what he was doing. The other grand Emerson synth solo favourites of mine are those in ‘Trilogy’ which I’ve also written out and will post on the other site eventually.
More questions for you please:
You mention ‘bass guitar feedback’. Are you referring to m. 84ff? For Lake is still playing his E flat – F ostinato there so I don’t understand.
When you say ‘next section... descend... with the glide on’ do you mean m. 226ff?
Would you know how the descending chromatic passages against the slowly ascending notes are done in m. 306ff? It can’t all be done on the IIIC can it? Is that the portion you refer to as ‘Mass’?
Thanks for the info on the Constellation – had previously thought maybe the Taurus was doing the drone, and that the wide open filter ‘heavy’ bass tone you mentioned was done with the Apollo since there are counter parts. Your comments all make sense for I was told the Constellation was out of reach of the IIIC on that tour, and not knowing the Minimoog was in use I didn’t know what to think.
cya, Raymon
Thanks so much for the detailed reply. That answers a lot of questions.
No problem, I’m sure others will chime in.
> The synth solos in that performance contain some of Emerson’s finest moments imo.
That recording has been a long time favorite of mine. In many ways I prefer the live version of Tarkus and Karn Evil 9 to the studio recording,
> You mention ‘bass guitar feedback’. Are you referring to m. 84ff? For Lake is still playing his E flat
Right before Greg starts the bass pattern there is the feedback bit , gives EMO time to set up the IIIC.
> When you say ‘next section... descend... with the glide on’ do you mean m. 226ff?
Right after EMO finishes with the sine wave solo, he pauses for a few beats, patch change then descends, Sorry I don’t have your score open in front of me. He does this ( with the LFO routed to the pitch) as he turns lessens the LFO he also reduces the glide setting. It here where he starts doubling then playing a counter part on the MiniMoog
> Would you know how the descending chromatic passages against the slowly ascending notes are done in m. 306ff? It can’t all be done on the IIIC can it? Is that the portion you refer to as ‘Mass’?
That section is right after he does some counter parts on the MiniMoog. With a modular Moog ( the IIIC ) you have all kinds if modulation capability. As he is ascending the keyboard chromatically using the osc’s used in the solo, the “descending” fix pitch is done with routing to other osc’s ( this is my theory anyway) with a pitch env. There are a few ways it could be triggered, from the keyboard, the ribbon controller or something else.
Mass ( vocals “ The Preacher said a prayer”) The synth lead is the IIIC after the Hammond solo I’m pretty sure what he’s doing on the IIIC is with the ribbon.
Thanks for the info on the Constellation – had previously thought maybe the Taurus was doing the drone, and that the wide open filter ‘heavy’ bass tone you mentioned was done with the Apollo since there are counter parts.
No problem. If you look at photos and what video is available form the California Jam the Apollo and Lyra are to the immediate left of the Hammond ( C3)/Modular set up . Pretty easy to reach over, but I pretty sure the only time he did that was on Karn Evil 9 3rd Jerusalem/Toccata.
Brian
No problem, I’m sure others will chime in.
> The synth solos in that performance contain some of Emerson’s finest moments imo.
That recording has been a long time favorite of mine. In many ways I prefer the live version of Tarkus and Karn Evil 9 to the studio recording,
> You mention ‘bass guitar feedback’. Are you referring to m. 84ff? For Lake is still playing his E flat
Right before Greg starts the bass pattern there is the feedback bit , gives EMO time to set up the IIIC
.> When you say ‘next section... descend... with the glide on’ do you mean m. 226ff?
Right after EMO finishes with the sine wave solo, he pauses for a few beats, patch change then descends, Sorry I don’t have your score open in front of me. He does this ( with the LFO routed to the pitch) as he turns lessens the LFO he also reduces the glide setting. It here where he starts doubling then playing a counter part on the MiniMoog
> Would you know how the descending chromatic passages against the slowly ascending notes are done in m. 306ff? It can’t all be done on the IIIC can it? Is that the portion you refer to as ‘Mass’?
That section is right after he does some counter parts on the MiniMoog. With a modular Moog ( the IIIC ) you have all kinds if modulation capability. As he is ascending the keyboard chromatically using the osc’s used in the solo, the “descending” fix pitch is done with routing to other osc’s ( this is my theory anyway
) with a pitch env. There are a few ways it could be triggered, from the keyboard, the ribbon controller or something else.Mass ( vocals “ The Preacher said a prayer”) The synth lead is the IIIC after the Hammond solo I’m pretty sure what he’s doing on the IIIC is with the ribbon.
Thanks for the info on the Constellation – had previously thought maybe the Taurus was doing the drone, and that the wide open filter ‘heavy’ bass tone you mentioned was done with the Apollo since there are counter parts.
No problem. If you look at photos and what video is available form the California Jam the Apollo and Lyra are to the immediate left of the Hammond ( C3)/Modular set up . Pretty easy to reach over, but I pretty sure the only time he did that was on Karn Evil 9 3rd Jerusalem/Toccata. Brian
Thanks again Brian,
I'm posting a synopsis of your info on the other site so they can dwell on it.
You say you prefer the live version of KE9; I'll be putting up the 'Welcome Back...' KE9 2nd on that site soon, with the 'Steel Drum' Caribbean solo (done on the IIIC or what?) - but I do prefer the album version there. Another bloke is xcribing that, and doing very well I must say.
So the F quarter flat I notated is from Lake's bass guitar feedback then? I've changed that section accordingly; I'd previously effectively coded Palmer's percussion there as Lake's bass. But now I see you are right. Palmer tuned some of his percussion to F which often confounds me for it sounds like Lake's bass guitar part. And probably something of Palmer's is is E flat too.
I have changed the Aquatarkus xcription as per my understanding of your advice, and will upload to the other site shortly - please review and let me know if there's anything more I can usefully annotate, or if I got anything wrong. Seems the IIIC is more versatile than I imagined!
I've improved the Hammond in the closeout. Remarkable how Emerson goes from F major to F minor there. Are there any other non-ELP quotes in this performance besides 'Minotaur' that you know of?
cya, Raymon
I'm posting a synopsis of your info on the other site so they can dwell on it.
You say you prefer the live version of KE9; I'll be putting up the 'Welcome Back...' KE9 2nd on that site soon, with the 'Steel Drum' Caribbean solo (done on the IIIC or what?) - but I do prefer the album version there. Another bloke is xcribing that, and doing very well I must say.
So the F quarter flat I notated is from Lake's bass guitar feedback then? I've changed that section accordingly; I'd previously effectively coded Palmer's percussion there as Lake's bass. But now I see you are right. Palmer tuned some of his percussion to F which often confounds me for it sounds like Lake's bass guitar part. And probably something of Palmer's is is E flat too.
I have changed the Aquatarkus xcription as per my understanding of your advice, and will upload to the other site shortly - please review and let me know if there's anything more I can usefully annotate, or if I got anything wrong. Seems the IIIC is more versatile than I imagined!
I've improved the Hammond in the closeout. Remarkable how Emerson goes from F major to F minor there. Are there any other non-ELP quotes in this performance besides 'Minotaur' that you know of?
cya, Raymon
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Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
Fwiw, the intro to Benny the Bouncer was performed on the Constellation, or more properly, the Apollo.
One can easily identify this as polyphonic, but very thin sounding.
This may be the only segment ever recorded that is only the Apollo, with no additional instrumentation or overdubs.
Also, while all of the synths heard are Moogs, Carl Palmer played prototype drum controllers in places, possibly the steel drum solo, but others may know more and are welcome to correct me here.
As to what actual synth was controlled and used by these pads, IIIc or Minimoog, I can't say.
Sorry if I can't be of more help here, though I do have Keith's home number written on my wall.
One can easily identify this as polyphonic, but very thin sounding.
This may be the only segment ever recorded that is only the Apollo, with no additional instrumentation or overdubs.
Also, while all of the synths heard are Moogs, Carl Palmer played prototype drum controllers in places, possibly the steel drum solo, but others may know more and are welcome to correct me here.
As to what actual synth was controlled and used by these pads, IIIc or Minimoog, I can't say.
Sorry if I can't be of more help here, though I do have Keith's home number written on my wall.
You say you prefer the live version of KE9
I really like the studio version of KE9 and Tarkus, there are just some spots of the Live I like better , more so on Tarkus
; So the F quarter flat I notated is from Lake's bass guitar feedback then? I've changed that section accordingly;
In case we are not talking about the same thing, the feedback happens right before Gerg starts the bass riff, the drone under that is the moog. Not sure how Carl had his drums tuned, he’s doing a riff along with the bass guitar using most of the toms, mostly staying in the middle range with a snare hit every few messures, the high hat is keeping a constant hit on the beat.
I have changed the Aquatarkus xcription as per my understanding of your advice, and will upload to the other site shortly - please review and let me know if there's anything more I can usefully annotate, or if I got anything wrong. Seems the IIIC is more versatile than I imagined!
I joined and posted to the yahoo site, but by all means feel free to incorporate into any of your posts,,, not sure if my message was approved or not The IIIc is modular which means ( if you don’t know) you patch all the modules to get the “sound” you want, all kinds of things can control , be controlled by all kinds of things. Emerson’s IIIC started life as a IC which was modified for presets. There was a box that had seven)?) hard wire preset “modules” that then connected to modified modules such as the ENV’s and oscillators. That Moog was used for the Jaxx In the Gardens concert held in New York in the late 60’s. After the Concert Moog was trying to figure out what to do with these one or two of a kind and the rest is history , Keith Acquired it then added on as years went by. For the BSS album he had added the third tier (IIIC now) which had the two 960 sequencers.
I've improved the Hammond in the closeout. Remarkable how Emerson goes from F major to F minor there. Are there any other non-ELP quotes in this performance besides 'Minotaur' that you know of?
None that I can recall.
The Steel Drum solo in KE 9 2nd is a MiniMoog
Kevin is right, I forgot about Benny the Bouncer on BSS . The Apollo also comes up on Works vol 2 on I think, Tiger and …. Apple Blossoms Bloom….
I really like the studio version of KE9 and Tarkus, there are just some spots of the Live I like better , more so on Tarkus
; So the F quarter flat I notated is from Lake's bass guitar feedback then? I've changed that section accordingly;
In case we are not talking about the same thing, the feedback happens right before Gerg starts the bass riff, the drone under that is the moog. Not sure how Carl had his drums tuned, he’s doing a riff along with the bass guitar using most of the toms, mostly staying in the middle range with a snare hit every few messures, the high hat is keeping a constant hit on the beat.
I have changed the Aquatarkus xcription as per my understanding of your advice, and will upload to the other site shortly - please review and let me know if there's anything more I can usefully annotate, or if I got anything wrong. Seems the IIIC is more versatile than I imagined!
I joined and posted to the yahoo site, but by all means feel free to incorporate into any of your posts,,, not sure if my message was approved or not The IIIc is modular which means ( if you don’t know) you patch all the modules to get the “sound” you want, all kinds of things can control , be controlled by all kinds of things. Emerson’s IIIC started life as a IC which was modified for presets. There was a box that had seven)?) hard wire preset “modules” that then connected to modified modules such as the ENV’s and oscillators. That Moog was used for the Jaxx In the Gardens concert held in New York in the late 60’s. After the Concert Moog was trying to figure out what to do with these one or two of a kind and the rest is history , Keith Acquired it then added on as years went by. For the BSS album he had added the third tier (IIIC now) which had the two 960 sequencers.
I've improved the Hammond in the closeout. Remarkable how Emerson goes from F major to F minor there. Are there any other non-ELP quotes in this performance besides 'Minotaur' that you know of?
None that I can recall.
The Steel Drum solo in KE 9 2nd is a MiniMoog
Kevin is right, I forgot about Benny the Bouncer on BSS . The Apollo also comes up on Works vol 2 on I think, Tiger and …. Apple Blossoms Bloom….
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Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
I think the chording in back of the Moog horn solo in the 3rd Impression on the studio BSS album is also the Apollo.
This begins at about 2:57 into the piece.
This video below shows a live performance where it would appear the original Moog horn solo was done by the Moog Lyra on top.
(2/3rds of the Constellation used for this passage.)
http://www.youtube.com/v/-mRCRfchaGc
This begins at about 2:57 into the piece.
This video below shows a live performance where it would appear the original Moog horn solo was done by the Moog Lyra on top.
(2/3rds of the Constellation used for this passage.)
http://www.youtube.com/v/-mRCRfchaGc
Kevin,
Ive seen the pictures of the Apollo prototypes, Ive drooled incessantly over the mere thought of the sheer power of the Constellation, Ive been to the Audites FOundation websites....im just wondering why it was never completed.
Was it pretty much just a matter of where the company was at that time coupled with Bob's departure and the focusing on the development of the polymoog?
I guess the sales literature of the Contellation is enough to inspire cause thats as close as well get lol.
Eric
Ive seen the pictures of the Apollo prototypes, Ive drooled incessantly over the mere thought of the sheer power of the Constellation, Ive been to the Audites FOundation websites....im just wondering why it was never completed.
Was it pretty much just a matter of where the company was at that time coupled with Bob's departure and the focusing on the development of the polymoog?
I guess the sales literature of the Contellation is enough to inspire cause thats as close as well get lol.
Eric
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/
I think I hear the mothership coming.
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/
I think I hear the mothership coming.
[quote="Kevin Lightner"]I think the chording in back of the Moog horn solo in the 3rd Impression on the studio BSS album is also the Apollo.
This begins at about 2:57 into the piece.
Yes, it is
This video below shows a live performance where it would appear the original Moog horn solo was done by the Moog Lyra on top.
(2/3rds of the Constellation used for this passage.)
Yes the Lyra was used for the opening horn passage, then the horn over the chords part later on.
This begins at about 2:57 into the piece.
Yes, it is
This video below shows a live performance where it would appear the original Moog horn solo was done by the Moog Lyra on top.
(2/3rds of the Constellation used for this passage.)
Yes the Lyra was used for the opening horn passage, then the horn over the chords part later on.
-
Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
Erik,
Technically these products were made, but as you know them to be now as the Taurus 1, Multimoog and Polymoog.
The Constellation was a development prototype of three separate instruments.
These instruments above were the evolution of this concept, broken into three actually marketable products.
With marketing interests and the desire for engineers to offer as much as possible, the feature set of those original instruments probably wasn't enough to make a profit from.
They wouldn't be interesting enough to sell or profitable enough to mass produce.
I think the Polymoog went a bit too far though and ended up as a very unreliable, longterm instrument.
Expensive to afford and to maintain in the long run.
Technically these products were made, but as you know them to be now as the Taurus 1, Multimoog and Polymoog.
The Constellation was a development prototype of three separate instruments.
These instruments above were the evolution of this concept, broken into three actually marketable products.
With marketing interests and the desire for engineers to offer as much as possible, the feature set of those original instruments probably wasn't enough to make a profit from.
They wouldn't be interesting enough to sell or profitable enough to mass produce.
I think the Polymoog went a bit too far though and ended up as a very unreliable, longterm instrument.
Expensive to afford and to maintain in the long run.
The Apollo - prototype of the Polymoog - died onstage during the ELP BSS tour and was never restored to operating condition.
I was briefly involved with Audities and I took a shot at restoring the Apollo. Never got very far. The thing was missing the power supply and designer Dave Luce had no schematics for it. Knowing Luce's eccentric design style (try studying the Polymoog service manual), it was anybody's guess what the power supply rails were (the Polymoog used at least five supply rails and audio ground was offset from power ground!). All the electronics were wire-wrap, which would had been a nightmare to restore. Wire-wrap is only for prototype work and the wire is so thin that breathing on it will break it, especially 30 year old rusted wire. I can't believe a wire-wrapped keyboard instrument even went on tour and survived at all.
The Apollo exists but I highly doubt it will ever breathe life again.
I was briefly involved with Audities and I took a shot at restoring the Apollo. Never got very far. The thing was missing the power supply and designer Dave Luce had no schematics for it. Knowing Luce's eccentric design style (try studying the Polymoog service manual), it was anybody's guess what the power supply rails were (the Polymoog used at least five supply rails and audio ground was offset from power ground!). All the electronics were wire-wrap, which would had been a nightmare to restore. Wire-wrap is only for prototype work and the wire is so thin that breathing on it will break it, especially 30 year old rusted wire. I can't believe a wire-wrapped keyboard instrument even went on tour and survived at all.
The Apollo exists but I highly doubt it will ever breathe life again.
While the Lyra was a Bob Moog design, the Multimoog/Micromoog was actually a Jim Scott design. When the Moog operation left Trumansburg, Jim did not move with the company. When he returned some years later, he brought them the Multi/Micromoog which he had designed in the interim.
The Voyager bears more resemblance to the Lyra than the Multimoog.
The Voyager bears more resemblance to the Lyra than the Multimoog.
The pedal synth of the Constellation trio is the Taurus pedal prototype and is long gone. Not sure if Emerson even used the pedal synth.
Dave Luce designed the pedal synth, and Bob Moog told me that Dave lifted the ladder filter right out of the modular.
Luce seems incapable of designing a proper EG, as both the Polymoog and Taurus I pedals have EGs that do not operate like traditional EGs. On the Polymoog if you were to use a longer attack time than the decay, the envelope would never reach full intensity. I always hated that. On the Taurus I, the SUSTAIN control in the VCA EG does nothing with the decay stage - it is merely an attenuator for the VCA envelope and thus controls volume.
The Taurus I had expansion electronics onboard and there was a grand plan to integrate the Polymoog and Taurus. It never happened - too many reliability issues with the Polymoog. Moog Custom Electronics offered an optional external control box for the Taurus pedals, and Genesis had the only one I've ever seen. Mike Bucki used to work for Moog Custom Electronics and he had never seen one.
Dave Luce designed the pedal synth, and Bob Moog told me that Dave lifted the ladder filter right out of the modular.
Luce seems incapable of designing a proper EG, as both the Polymoog and Taurus I pedals have EGs that do not operate like traditional EGs. On the Polymoog if you were to use a longer attack time than the decay, the envelope would never reach full intensity. I always hated that. On the Taurus I, the SUSTAIN control in the VCA EG does nothing with the decay stage - it is merely an attenuator for the VCA envelope and thus controls volume.
The Taurus I had expansion electronics onboard and there was a grand plan to integrate the Polymoog and Taurus. It never happened - too many reliability issues with the Polymoog. Moog Custom Electronics offered an optional external control box for the Taurus pedals, and Genesis had the only one I've ever seen. Mike Bucki used to work for Moog Custom Electronics and he had never seen one.
Wow this is some interesting info here, thanks for sharing it all..
don't know if you've seen this one, I was impressed on how well
this guy nailed Emerson's Moog sounds from the California Jam live
versions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuPeXcPd ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuPeXcPd ... re=related
don't know if you've seen this one, I was impressed on how well
this guy nailed Emerson's Moog sounds from the California Jam live
versions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuPeXcPd ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuPeXcPd ... re=related
"Although they heard the music..they didn't understand the tune"