What is Mint?

Kevin Lightner · Post by **Kevin Lightner** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:25 am

Ok, we've all seen sales and auctions describe an item as "mint."

To me, mint is just an opinion and usually one from someone that doesn't know much about the insides of a synth or how things age.
I firmly believe there's no such thing as a mint vintage synth because mint usually describes something perfect and unused and age creates imperfections.
Even if a synth was bought new and stored... to me.... it would not be mint.
Everything in it is still aged.

For example, electrolytic caps are supposed to last (within spec) for only about 15 or so years.
Rubber tends to harden up and crack, while other materials turn to goo.
A synth could have a family of bugs inside, tons of unseen dog or cat hair, worn or tarnished contact surfaces in switches and pots, etc.
Adjustment trimmers have been sitting on the same surface for decades.
There's also little indication externally that it might have been stored in a very hot or cool place.

So what is mint to you?
Does it exist?
Is the external condition coupled with the knowledge and expertise of the seller good enough to believe their opinion of mint every time?
One never sees a house or car billed that way.

I am also curious if someone was take a synth, replace the aged components with new ones and all that, is that synth still mint or newly made into mint?
And with that said... and no gradient to the levels of "mint"... would such a serviced synth then be mint (and equal to another billed as mint) or somehow "ultra mint", "double mint" (heh) or whatever.
That is, what is the variance allowed for the "mint" qualification or even at what level does someone consider something "restored"?

Keep in mind that I'm biased: I've seen a lot of "mint" and "restored" synths in for service.

Your thoughts?

latigid on · Post by **latigid on** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:58 pm

Mint can only refer to the condition of the synth's exterior.
Serviced indicates the condition inside is good.
Unknown means the seller is full of bleep.

synthetic · Post by **synthetic** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:07 pm

Yeah, I take "mint" to mean the exterior/physical condition. If someone wanted to sell me a mint '58 Corvette, I would assume that the paint and parts were all original and in good condition, but I would also hope the tires, oil and other serviceable items had been replaced over the years. A car could be "mint" and still have major problems under the hood, and the same is true with a synth. I would also take their claim with a grain of salt.

thewaag · Post by **thewaag** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:54 pm

To me, mint means that the synth is in perfect condition on the outside, but it must be working perfectly as well.

If I bought a "mint" synth off of eBay and it looked perfect but did not work, I would be pissed.....

In actuality, however, I suppose that Kevin's definition is correct for an old synth. The insides cannot be mint if they are 30 years old, because of the natural deterioration of the components due to age. If the parts have been replaced, it is no longer original, and thus, to my mind, no longer mint either. I would call the insides refurbished.

If I bought a used Voyager that was like new on the exterior and working perfectly, I WOULD call that "mint" because the interior workings were new enough to not be concerned about deterioration.

space_nerd · Post by **space_nerd** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:54 am

I believe that term "Mint" is refers only to the external appearence of an instrument.
There may be unplayed, never gigged instruments that have components inside them that are time-bombs: Capacitors, especially in the power supplies that, if the are leaky they may cause great damage in the instrument -for example you find a synth that hasn't be powered on for ages: if the power supply is bad it may toast the internals

Many people believe that if you see an instrument that has minimal external wear issues this is a good sign that it's interiors may be in good shape too.

But it's not a rule: my humble advise is that if you find a machine that you don't know about, an abadoned instrument in "mint" condition or any other, take it to an technician to check it out.

And don't forget things with CEMs inside. My synth is full of them and they have a specific life-cycle

This must applied to any machine with custom chips inside.

So, "mint" is a term used by many sellers to tempt people.

Don · Post by **Don** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:33 am

I would say that "mint" is a meaningless sales term, like "free gift" (what sort of "gift" isn't free?).

As has been pointed out, mint can refer to the exterior appearance. It should mean "appears to be new," but there's no guarantee that any advertiser uses it that way.

For collectors, "mint" can mean "no replaced parts." Of course, that also means if it is an old product, it may not work. It may also mean "replaced parts identical to original" as opposed to "upgraded" when means "replaced parts superior (in the seller's mind) to original."

But the bottom line is that it just a line. Check with any seller for specifics.

synthetic · Post by **synthetic** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:48 pm

I remember the "near mint" ARP 2600 that was on Matrixsynth: the seller put a small sprig of mint on the ground next to the synth and a label pointing to "mint!"

Kevin Lightner · Post by **Kevin Lightner** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:47 pm

Thanks for the comments.

I guess mint is sort of like "sexy."
It's all up to the beholder.

A few additional comments:

I was the one who put up the "near mint" 2600.
It was put up on Ebay, not Matrixsynth.
He just has no original content so has to copy things like that.
It was a ragged 2600, but there's a mint plant growing outside here, so I put them both together as a joke.

CEM chips a finite life?
Probably all chips do.
But I rarely have to replace CEMs or even CMOS chips.
Things aren't as bad (at least presently) as some people would claim.
The last time I located a bad CMOS chip was in an Oberheim 4 voice.
Finding that chip revealed where Oberheim forgot to ground certain pins on some ICs in their keyboard interface circuit, so while the chip changed over time, Oberheim didn't follow the rules about grounding unused input pins.
The funny thing is that many of the CEMs I've had to replace, actually died because the power supply of the unit was bad- due to old capacitors.
Nowadays every synth here gets every electrolytic replaced as a rule.
I don't know how that affects their "mintiness", but it's better to have a working synth than a gorgeous doorstop.

till · Post by **till** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:08 pm

Kevin,

...
Nowadays every synth here gets every electrolytic replaced as a rule.
...

from which age on?
1990ies analogs too?

I heard about several CEM 3387 that died in Waldorf WAVEs and MicroWaves.

thewaag · Post by **thewaag** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:51 pm

Kevin Lightner wrote: I don't know how that affects their "mintiness", but it's better to have a working synth than a gorgeous doorstop.

Funny!!

Kevin Lightner · Post by **Kevin Lightner** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:29 pm

from which age on?
1990ies analogs too?

That's a good question, but I rarely see synths made in the 90's and later.
Generally 15-20 years is considered a normal lifespan for electrolytics, but newer ones might last longer.

Either way, it's all up to the unit.
I've had to replace caps in our 2002 ethernet router because they failed from heat.
I'm replacing caps in a 24 yr old JP-8 power supply right now.
They were rated for 85c and leaked, so I'm installing 105c types instead.

A picture is worth a thousand words:http://www.minimoog.net/jp8cap.jpg

DeFrag · Post by **DeFrag** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:08 pm

To me, I recognize the following top-tier categories:

Brand Spanking New - A unit recently manufactured & released to the public, in a factory-sealed box that is not damaged.

New Unit - Same as above except the unit is a number of months or years old yet still in production.

New Old Stock - Like a new unit in every way but discontinued

Mint Condition - The unit has been removed from the box & touched by the consumer's hands. Played to the extent as to confirm proper operation of all parameters.

Demo Model - New unit on a dealer's shelf, touched by many. May hold minor defects such as slight wear, scratches, etc.

Kevin Lightner · Post by **Kevin Lightner** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:01 pm

New Old Stock - Like a new unit in every way but discontinued

What are your thoughts about the effects of time?
Plastic and rubber can degrade and silver can tarnish.
If I sell an old switch that's never been used as NOS, but the contacts are tarnished, it wouldn't be new in every way, yet still be NOS..

Mint Condition - The unit has been removed from the box & touched by the consumer's hands. Played to the extent as to confirm proper operation of all parameters.

Same for above.
Would a Moog Rogue (complete with dust cover material that's turned to goo) be Mint if it's been played once or even stored in the box from day one?

What about the electrolytics, a memory battery or tarnished key or switch contacts?

No arguments... just curious.

dave500 · Post by **dave500** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:27 pm

If I buy a 1958 Chevy in mint I would think its been completely restored. But a Rogue it should look new and sound new no repairs needed.

theglyph · Post by **theglyph** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:52 pm

This is an interesting thread.

To me, the term MINT boils down to semantics!

One definition found online (here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mint&x=0&y=0):

"unused or appearing to be newly made and never used: a book in mint condition."

The words "appearing to be" are what's so interesting.

Kevin Lightner wrote:What about the electrolytics, a memory battery or tarnished key or switch contacts?

My Juno-106 stills holds its presets so I didn't think much about the internal battery. So it "appears" to be "MINT". But I did know better so I cracked the Roland open and sure enough the battery wasn't looking so hot.

Mint one day and battery leaking all over the PCB the next!

Thank god for flash memory!