new 8 voice all analog poly

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thewaag
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Post by thewaag » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:55 pm

This is a tough situation for Moog.

Do you try to do a bang up job on a multi voice (read that $$$$) or do you go the route of DSI and go for bank for the buck? DSI really hit the nail on the head with a $2000 street price on their Prophet 8.

People on this board are saying "keep it simple". But if you go the cheap route the synth geeks (and I mean that in a good way) will pan the instrument because it does not have enough flexibility for them.

I guess that Moog's development department needs to decide who they would be building this thing for. Can they sell more if they sell at a cheaper price but build a keyboard that is not very versitile, or do they make a super hot synth and charge a bunch of money? Seems like the guys who want super versitile already have other options out there (A6), but now the cost consious guys have an option as well with the P8.

Boy, if I were in Moog's shoes, this would be a very tough call.

I would hate to see them go into too many menus. While I give Moog credit for continuing to develop the LP and give the customers more options, I hate not having the info right up front, instead having to go into a menu system. Not much else they can do, however. It is great that they continue to make a great synth even better...
Thanks Bob!!

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Kevin Lightner
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Post by Kevin Lightner » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:38 pm

Flame mode on. ;-)


Well,.... i dont think they really have a choice now but to make one.;o) It makes no sense not to make one now.
i would much prefer purchasing a poly moog...any plans by say.....Jan 08?
We will see if Moog will rise to the challenge to make something to battle the P8
well i was thinking that the new Moog poly should be based on
This is a tough situation for Moog.

Rise to challenge?
Battle?
No sense not to?
The new moog?
Tough situation?

WTF?

I don't think taunting Moog will cause them to make one, nor do I think the DSI synth is any threat whatsoever to Moog.
Not even a miniscule, tiny bit.

Does it say somewhere that Moog is even designing or considering a poly synth?

The polymoog tanked Moog originally.
The Chroma helped sink Arp.
The A6 put the nails in Alesis' coffin.

Making a good poly synth requires a ton of money and time.
Even if they started now, they wouldn't have one for sale by Jan 08.. that's only 4 months away!
Hardware and manufacturing are one thing.
Producing good OS software is another.

thewaag
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Post by thewaag » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:17 am

Kevin Lightner wrote: The polymoog tanked Moog originally.
The Chroma helped sink Arp.
The A6 put the nails in Alesis' coffin.
Kevin,

Very good points, but maybe some other factors had something to do with the problems, rather than the fact that the companies were developing polysynths??

You are in a better position and business to understand this than I, but wasn't the original Moog already in trouble before the Polymoog came along? The fact that they released the Polymoog and then needed 300 engineering changes would indicate that maybe the product was ill conceived or rushed into production.

As far as ARP, isn't it widely considered that the Avatar guitar synth killed that company? The Chroma, in fact, was the one thing deemed of any value in the company when ARP shut it's doors.

Both Moog and ARP were badly managed in those days. I think that this is what killed the companies, not polyphonic synthesizers (although I guess that you could say that development of poly synths might have been poor business management for those companies at that particular time).

Not sure what is going on at Alesis. The A6 is considered by many to be THE top analog poly synth of the day. You have really got to work at them to get a full understanding. I know lots of good synth guys who have discarded theirs for something else. Seems like it's release was kind of anti-climatic--you never saw much advertising about the A6. Alesis has always made some pretty nice synths that never got much press, for whatever reason. Poor marketing?

Isn't the fact that the Prophet was polyphonic (and it had a good patch memory system) what brought Sequential Circuits out of the garage and into the limelight?

I am not so sure that polyphonic analog synths are necessarily a company killer, although as you say, development can be expensive, and this cost, if not managed properly, can bring a company down.

Hey, part of the fun of this board is speculation. We have been talking about new Memorymoog or Taurus for a couple years here. Those Source lovers requests were not so off the wall with the LP were they? And the LP gets closer to a Source all the time, what with the addition of S&H and Noise. Can a OS sequencer be far behind?? :wink: At least maybe a stand alone sequencer...

In my posts, I don't mean to taunt Moog. Moog is one of my favorite companies of all time. I do think, however, that there has always been a friendly rivalry with Moog and Sequential/DSI. I find it hard to believe that Moog will completely ignore the analog polysynth market and just let DSI (and others) have it all to themselves. I would be the first to admit that I could be all wet on that presumption, however.

Don't you think that the dollar value of the Voyager just took a hit when you can buy a good sounding polysynth from DSI for more than $1,000 less? I listened to some of the P8 sounds on the DSI site and they sound pretty nice. Some even sound kind of Moogy!

Make no mistake, the Phatty is driving Moog right now. From my understanding, they are selling the crap out of the LP. Good for them. I want my Moog buddies around for a long time. It just makes sense that they might have a poly synth on the drawing board. I just hope that whatever they are working on does not put this great small company in jeopardy.

Don't get upset at everyone because they are speculating. That is part of what this forum is here for. If we posted facts only, there would be nothing to read here!!
Thanks Bob!!

eweise
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Post by eweise » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:50 am

I think what makes the most sense if for Moog sell an expansion unit for the phatty since it would cost a lot less per voice than the voyager. If they could make say a 4 voice rack for $1000 it would be a big hit since you could get into the phatty for $1200 and then when you're hooked (like me) you would gladly pay another $1000 to make it polyphonic.

How about Moog? Can you polyphony my phatty?

MarkM
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Post by MarkM » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:32 am

I doubt Moog was blind-sided by the new Prophet. People in the industry know what's going on. I'm sure they have been working on future products that we will all want.

I'm wondering how the big Japanese companies are taking the ever-building revival of analogue synths.
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PHC
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Post by PHC » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:07 am

PolyPhatty. Now that's something. But voyager users would want such an expansion too (nobody's buying 4RME's). Count me in if a PolyPhatty expansion is comming :-)

thewaag
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Post by thewaag » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:51 pm

eweise wrote:I think what makes the most sense if for Moog sell an expansion unit for the phatty since it would cost a lot less per voice than the voyager. If they could make say a 4 voice rack for $1000 it would be a big hit since you could get into the phatty for $1200 and then when you're hooked (like me) you would gladly pay another $1000 to make it polyphonic.

How about Moog? Can you polyphony my phatty?
This makes one HELL of a lot of sense. Who knows, with their recent addition of the Poly mode on the OS, this may be in the works. I don't really see it as being feasible for LP owners to purchase another 4 or 5 units in order to have polyphony.

This may very well be the road that our friends at Moog are taking. I know, I know---more speculation.
Thanks Bob!!

nathan
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Post by nathan » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:33 pm

well, the freqbox is 300,-
so it's even cheaper to go poly.
:)
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Post by toryjames » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:29 am

Mr Lightner (or anyone qualified to answer),
Dave Smith's stuff is surface-mount technology and Moog still uses discrete components, correct? It seems this is how DSI's price point can be brought so low. If a surface-mount component fails can it be replaced? Or does the entire board have to be replaced? I'd appreciate if you could offer us some insight into the benefits of both production methods.
Thanks.

toryjames
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Post by toryjames » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:31 am

One vote here for a 4-voice expander.

theglyph
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Post by theglyph » Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:08 pm

bosshog wrote:Dave Smith's stuff is surface-mount technology and Moog still uses discrete components, correct? It seems this is how DSI's price point can be brought so low.
Dave Smith as I understand uses only surface-mount while Moog uses some through-hole and some surface-mount. I do believe one reason surface-mount is cheaper is the ease of mounting components onto PCBs using machines instead of old ladies in hairnets!

Discrete is usually used to describe circuits containing individual transistors in place of IC's. This is what rings up the debate of "old analog vs. new analog!" It is cheaper to use a single IC instead of the dozens or hundreds of transistors required to represent the functionality of the single IC.

Bosshog, what you may be thinking of is the fact that Dave uses Curtis chips in his gear while Moog uses good old opamps in their designs (this may be what you were refering to as discrete). The Curtis chips contain the functionality of many componenets in a single IC. This allows Dave to incorporate more voices with less real estate for less $ in his designs but it does arguably have an affect on the overall sound (good or bad depending on how your ears feel about it).
bosshog wrote:If a surface-mount component fails can it be replaced? Or does the entire board have to be replaced? I'd appreciate if you could offer us some insight into the benefits of both production methods.
Surface-mount components can be replaced but it can be a pain in the arse. Since the components are smaller it can be tricky to slop up all of the solder and remove the component without pulling up the PCB's mounting pads! Oh, I forgot that the new "lead free" solder makes the process a nightmare! :evil:

I've been wondering though if the current crop the Curtis chips can be socketed as they were in the old days!

analogMan
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Post by analogMan » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:17 pm

You guys are forgetting the very most important thing here...

Dave Smiths Instruments don't sound like a Moog.

I wouldn't trade 100000 voices of anything over 1 voice of Moog.
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Basti
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Post by Basti » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:55 pm

I tried the DSI MEK extensively. There was no way not to let it go & to order a Moog.

Holy god of synthesis, I pray every day to get a phone call from my dealer telling me that damn thing has arrived :lol:

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GregAE
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Prophet 8 video

Post by GregAE » Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:42 am

For anyone interested, there's a series of extensive videos featuring Dave Smith discussing the design and development of the Prophet 8. Go to:

http://www.keyboardmag.tv/

and in the Channels selection window, look for "NEW! Dave Smith"


- G

Gonga
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Post by Gonga » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:44 pm

If moog can make a rack-mount expander that follows the midi settings of either a Voyager or LP I'd go for it. Maybe it could be a bit like the LP in the frugal use of pots and like the RME in size and construction! At least 6 voices.

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