Rick Wakeman on the Minimoog, and a curious story

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mee3d
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Post by mee3d » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:33 pm

Thus far, I have not seen a website that featured objective description and documentation of analog synthesizers.
I'm not too sure if the common man want's objective descriptions, and you are right, I have not witnessed such an item in the analog synth world. If you take the most popular synth publications on the market today thay all reflect some individuals perception, whether it be Mark Vail or Peter Forrest etc, to date I only think someone like Gordon Reid would be fit for the task as he tends to be pretty objective (IMO) but I doubt Gordon would take on a task from a business point of view.

By making something so academic you are surely limiting your demographic which is fine if you want to go down as the guy that made a great product but not so good for the money making.
In that way, they are not actually resources, but instead fan-pages.
Isn't it synth fans that buy into this type of product anyway?
I won't need to spend any money at all, initially
You sound like you are ahead of the game if you have the content and the skills to build such a product but In my experience, having the raw content is one thing, turning that material into a professional product is something different.

I know most people do not count their time working on personal projects but if you are to create a business model and make some money then you should, it's this point that you'll find most people who have tried to create something like this end up being bitter about the time involved and the lack of income.

Just because it's possible now to edit video to professional standards using a desktop computer and it's relatively easy to put home made videos online doesn't mean the skills are there to make something interesting, professional and profitable... as much as I like the YouTube wave of 'fan based' synth demos (because I too am a fan of synths), they are a long way from being professional.

This happened in the web development world some years back with the advent of easy build website applications and now everyone with a little computer knowledge can build a website but it takes a lot more then just a few clicks to build something that ticks all the boxes for clients and a large percentage of 'web developers' don't have the background knowledge to understand why certain restraints have to happen (or not as the case may be).

I do understand what you are trying to acheive and I think you are right in that there is probably a need for such a product but I know both Peter Forrest and Martin Newcomb (and others in the field) and I know that they have not really recouped the money invested into their products, if it's a labour of love then no need to worry ... just that somewhere in the previous threads someone said something about making money!

Just so you know, I currently have 2 synth related DVD products that I have been working on for the last 3 years... clearly not a money maker!
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museslave
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Post by museslave » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:43 pm

mee3d wrote:I'm not too sure if the common man want's objective descriptions, and you are right, I have not witnessed such an item in the analog synth world. If you take the most popular synth publications on the market today thay all reflect some individuals perception, whether it be Mark Vail or Peter Forrest etc, to date I only think someone like Gordon Reid would be fit for the task as he tends to be pretty objective (IMO) but I doubt Gordon would take on a task from a business point of view.
Well, I have a problem with how media, products, etc. tend to pander to the petty wants and desires of the general public. The "if I give them what they want, I'll make MONEY" attitude. There was a time when this wasn't the case, of course... it used to be "if I give them what they need to know, they will give me money." It may be too late for such things, but.. ah, well.
The effects of giving the people what they want (ala VSE) are quite evident on the internet. The history of electronic music is being horribly skewed into a viewpoint that is taken purely from a very current perspective... without any sort of context or understanding of the culture of the times when these products were actually made. If I never made a cent, I would still be happy with creating a site that had an academic portrayal of the devices. This is, however, not to say that it wouldn't be gorgeous and cool and entertaining.
I love Gordon Reid!


mee3d wrote:By making something so academic you are surely limiting your demographic which is fine if you want to go down as the guy that made a great product but not so good for the money making.
Absolutely. I consider my YouTube videos (such as they are) academic, in that the devices functionality and sound is demonstrated in a manner that does not force a specific genre or musical perspective... does not rely on baseless hyperbolic adjectives (doesn't RELY I said, hee), etc. Still... while you might think that a run through of the functionality of any given synth would bore you to tears (I think it would, too) people are interested, and say so. (even people who say "I can't believe I was just entertained by 10 minutes of synth explanation") While I know this isn't a giant demographic, it gives hope that there is interest.
Again... it isn't necessarily about the money making.


mee3d wrote:Isn't it synth fans that buy into this type of product anyway?
There are a number of different varieties of "synth fan." It's possible to market to all of them without pandering to the lowest-common-demonimator. Right now, the newest generation of synth fan is being taught that an analog synthesizer is some old limited thing that can make "great leads and basses, but that's about it." They are led to believe that all electronic instruments were and are made for techno, and that analog synths are difficult, unreliable, etc. If, perhaps, they received a more accurate portrayal of history, analog synths, and what they do, perhaps more of them would be interested... and informed.
mee3d wrote:You sound like you are ahead of the game if you have the content and the skills to build such a product but In my experience, having the raw content is one thing, turning that material into a professional product is something different.
Of course.

mee3d wrote:I know most people do not count their time working on personal projects but if you are to create a business model and make some money then you should, it's this point that you'll find most people who have tried to create something like this end up being bitter about the time involved and the lack of income.
I am an analog enthusiast. I am driven by a philosophy, and a perceived lack. I'm not looking for a job, I make what I need from freelance composition and web design. The point at which I feel like I am not getting what I need from any project I pursue, I stop pursuing it. I personally believe that all great work starts from an interest in that work, not an interest in what can be made from the work.
mee3d wrote:Just because it's possible now to edit video to professional standards using a desktop computer and it's relatively easy to put home made videos online doesn't mean the skills are there to make something interesting, professional and profitable... as much as I like the YouTube wave of 'fan based' synth demos (because I too am a fan of synths), they are a long way from being professional.
This argument is the same argument I might use if I said "just because you can make music in your home these days doesn't mean it's going to be GOOD or POPULAR music..." But as with any art form, skill, experience, and quality may not be the defining factors of something that is enjoyed or becomes popular.
As one of the first "fan-based" synth demo people, I would state that the goal in YouTube synth-demoing is not placing the demo in a context that would appeal to a movie director or corporate executive. I am well aware that my lighting is often terrible, that I am currently only using a single angle, that the compression software I use is crap, and that YouTube's compression process makes a bad thing worse... however, my goal is being met... and also being met with enjoyment, approval, and support. Call it Lo-Fi Video, if you must.
mee3d wrote:This happened in the web development world some years back with the advent of easy build website applications and now everyone with a little computer knowledge can build a website but it takes a lot more then just a few clicks to build something that ticks all the boxes for clients and a large percentage of 'web developers' don't have the background knowledge to understand why certain restraints have to happen (or not as the case may be).
Yep, that's me too. I've designed websites professionally for the past 9 years... I've never taken a single web-developing class. There is a very great deal I do not know. However, somehow... people seem to be interested enough in the sites that I have made to pursue my business.
While there are plenty of websites built by those who speak code fluently... that are 100% designed to fit all protocols and feature the most appropriate use of functionality, there are also beautiful and expressive and effective websites that do not.
Again... do I tell a punk musician that the inversion of chord they're using does not follow proper voice leading principles and results in an awkward transition? Do I tell analog synth users that if they don't know what each component in analog synthesizers do or how they work that they're not actually creating music? Well, yes, I do... but that's not the point. :wink:
mee3d wrote:I do understand what you are trying to acheive and I think you are right in that there is probably a need for such a product but I know both Peter Forrest and Martin Newcomb (and others in the field) and I know that they have not really recouped the money invested into their products, if it's a labour of love then no need to worry ... just that somewhere in the previous threads someone said something about making money!
Just so you know, I currently have 2 synth related DVD products that I have been working on for the last 3 years... clearly not a money maker!
Ohh, I see... trying to dishearten the competition, are you? ; )
Kidding. I'm sure I wouldn't be competition at all... if I was intent on pursuing it. As it is, it's just something I would like to do... but not enough to have done it yet. But, if I did... I would be sure to do everything the way I think it should be... probably wholly incorrectly from a business standpoint... but that's the sort of entrepreneurial spirit that has often resulted in success. ::shrugs:: It's the same thing with the websites... my first websites were all graphics-laden and didn't use any html text at all. I was told they were all wrong... but I couldn't bear how websites in that day all looked like bad magazine publishing... so I made mine in photographic 3D... and, despite being "wrong," they were very popular... and led to income. (not a lot, mind you... :wink: )
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mee3d
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Post by mee3d » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:15 pm

Personally I have no problem pandering to the general public as it's these people that are going to part with the cash and need the insight most, and I think it's a little foolish to think that if I make a product that I think the people want I am going to get paid for it... especially when really most of this 'academic' stuff is available online if you look hard enough, or can be bought on amazom (analog days by Trevor Pinch and Frank trocco as example).

And I wonder about the take-up of the likes of YouTube... I know many people who traul through YT everyday with absolutely no interest in anything they are seing other then the delight of the 20 second interest span and the vast amounts of virtual channels to hop. Sure, some of these people might get something out of the synth fan demos but are they really seeing this as academic, or merely some guy goofing off and enjoying the "gig"?

One thing that I learnt 20 years ago about creating presentations (video, interactive, web etc) is that it IS best to pander to the lowest common denominator because if you get this market sewn up it's easy to real in the intelect afterwards.

Personally I dissagry with your statement regarding synth newbies/young people being taught analog synths equate to being old or limited or that analog synths can only do basses and leads etc... it's probably moog themselves that push this outlook as it suits their "legacy" branding but there are many other up and coming and established analog manufacturers that talk-up their kit as 'new' & 'varied' and "state of the art".

Currently your goal might be being met with your YouTube videos but the next step is probably a leap in learning on your part to do all that stuff yourself profesionally... it's fine within the concept of YouTube to offer lo-fi video production but no one is going to want that when watching a high-brow, academic, serious presentation...surely?

I have no problem with untrainined people offering professional services so long as the outcome meets (and succeeds) the clients needs but there is a quality level at which the service provider can no longer compete with the larger agencies or the more skilled/trained individual... there is a huge difference in creating a site for "Joes Pizza Place" down the road and creating a company-wide intranet for "Nortel Networks"... this is how I see the difference between creating videos for YouTube and an on-the-shelf, shrinkwrapped video DVD product.
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Post by museslave » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:44 pm

mee3d wrote:Personally I have no problem pandering to the general public as it's these people that are going to part with the cash and need the insight most, and I think it's a little foolish to think that if I make a product that I think the people want I am going to get paid for it... especially when really most of this 'academic' stuff is available online if you look hard enough, or can be bought on amazom (analog days by Trevor Pinch and Frank trocco as example).
Very little that is truly great is designed to appeal to a market. While things that are designed to appeal to a market can make a great deal of money, the greatest accomplishments and ventures usually come from a person who is pursuing a unique vision they would pursue if it made not a cent.
It's the Howard Roark factor.

As for Analog Days, I possess it and many other histories of analog synthesizers. I would think myself a complete idiot, as you apparently do, if I intended to have a site about the history of analog synthesizers and had not researched the topic extensively in more places than the abysmal internet.
That 16 year old kid who just became interested in synthesizers is going STRAIGHT for the VSE, not going to a library to check out Analog Days, unfortunately.
mee3d wrote:And I wonder about the take-up of the likes of YouTube... I know many people who traul through YT everyday with absolutely no interest in anything they are seing other then the delight of the 20 second interest span and the vast amounts of virtual channels to hop. Sure, some of these people might get something out of the synth fan demos but are they really seeing this as academic, or merely some guy goofing off and enjoying the "gig"?
I only know what they tell me in the form of comments. Perhaps most of the tens of thousands thought all of my videos were stupid, and didn't take time to leave a comment.

mee3d wrote:One thing that I learnt 20 years ago about creating presentations (video, interactive, web etc) is that it IS best to pander to the lowest common denominator because if you get this market sewn up it's easy to real in the intelect afterwards.
That's probably the best way to generate cash, but as I've stated, my goals are not built upon a business model.
mee3d wrote:Personally I dissagry with your statement regarding synth newbies/young people being taught analog synths equate to being old or limited or that analog synths can only do basses and leads etc... it's probably moog themselves that push this outlook as it suits their "legacy" branding but there are many other up and coming and established analog manufacturers that talk-up their kit as 'new' & 'varied' and "state of the art".
I direct you to the Vintage Synth Explorer.
I'm going on the forum comments I read every day, every single synthesizer description site, the comments I read on my own demonstrative videos, movies like the Moog movie and Modulations, books like "Electronic Music Pioneers," by Ben Kettlewell (the source information is great, but his interpretation and writing are execrable). Perhaps my lighthearted and friendly prose style suggests that I am some sort of clueless well-meaning kid, but the premises upon which I base my statements and decisions come from knowledge, education, and research.
It's interesting that you tend to assume that every statement I'm making is coming from some sort of green, youthful, starry-eyed optimist.
mee3d wrote:Currently your goal might be being met with your YouTube videos but the next step is probably a leap in learning on your part to do all that stuff yourself profesionally... it's fine within the concept of YouTube to offer lo-fi video production but no one is going to want that when watching a high-brow, academic, serious presentation...surely?
Yes, you're right. No one ever seeks to watch anything that isn't a slick marketing-filled presentation by a seasoned videographer following all of the rules of the seasoned videographer.
You know, I recently watched a videographic history of the "Amen Break," that was absolutely fascinating... which featured a visual of a phonograph playing a record for about 60% of the video.
A person with even a lick of sense would recognize that if they were to make a video production whose intended media was something other than a highly compressed tiny box on the internet, they would have to generate a higher production value.
mee3d wrote:I have no problem with untrainined people offering professional services so long as the outcome meets (and succeeds) the clients needs but there is a quality level at which the service provider can no longer compete with the larger agencies or the more skilled/trained individual... there is a huge difference in creating a site for "Joes Pizza Place" down the road and creating a company-wide intranet for "Nortel Networks"... this is how I see the difference between creating videos for YouTube and an on-the-shelf, shrinkwrapped video DVD product.
Do you write music, Mal? Did you get an education in music? Do you have a degree in music? How much do you know about various composers and eras that preceeded our own? Form and analysis? Music theory? Did you take piano lessons? Do you have a degree in composition? Do your compositions follow age-old functional rules that prove that you have the education required to professionally compose music?
How much education in the history of electronic music do you think the people who made the current websites regarding analog synthesizers have?
The amusing thing about how you're riling me is the fact that I am usually on YOUR end of this argument. I think the lack of respect for various authority on the internet is an outrage. My response is generated largely by my own recognition that skill is often outweighed by talent... or even worse, popularity.

Building an intranet has the least possible to do with what I plan to do. I think you're conflating the tool with the the art the tool was designed to make. I can't help but think that you're suggesting (despite not having ever experienced it) that my design is more on the "look at the page I made for my uncle" than on the "look at the functional interface I designed for a company." If so, it is only further indicative of your inclination to assume ignorance before collecting any data.

I'm sorry your forays into synthesizer related content have not been successful for you. I'm sure you are worth the thousands of dollars you make. However, the simple fact that yours have not been successful is not a rational reason for mine not to be, regardless of your level of expertise, or mine.
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Post by mee3d » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:57 am

Marc, given the way you express yourself I am sure you will be successful in whatever you do in this field and opologies if you think I am being offensive, that was not my meaning, I'm not here to rile anyone I'm just expressing my two cents.

I'm no spotty kid (a bit older then you) that wants to upset people on the forums... I'm just "chewing the cud" with you.

I do not think you are green, or an idiot, or stupid, or a starry-eyed optimist (although we could do with a few more people like that in the world).

I do have an education in music, I do have a degree in music, I have studied the works of composers past and present, I did take piano lessons although I don't have a degree in composition. Unfortunatly I have not had much time in the last 20 years to compose as my other form of creative outlet, film and media overtook my studies way back then and now I run a successful multimedia firm (there really was no money to be made in music in the late 80's).

I also have a 3 year apprenticeship & diploma in cinematography from Samuelson Film Services (the people that used to supply Panavision cameras to the Bond and StarWars movies). I am a trained film cameraman and worked on many films between 1986 - 92. I also have various engineering diplomas from Sony and Ampeg as I later retrained as a video broadcast engineer, for what it's worth I can strip down a model D minimoog and rebuild it no problem (and have done so on a few occasions).

In the early to mid 90's I retrained again and was the first accredited Macromedia Director Software Trainer in the UK, I went on to create pioneering work on the Philips CDi interactive platform. I have worked with practicaly every well known design agency in the UK and my clients are large corporations. I was the creative director of the London branch of iXL inc, the worlds largest new media agency, before they went pop in the dotcom crash of 2000 and now, probably a little burnt out I have semi-retired to Ireland but the work follows me here and I'm unfortunatly just as busy.
I can't help but think that you're suggesting (despite not having ever experienced it) that my design is more on the "look at the page I made for my uncle" than on the "look at the functional interface I designed for a company." If so, it is only further indicative of your inclination to assume ignorance before collecting any data.
I was just giving that as an example and did not mean to suggest this was you Marc...

Lastly, my forays into Synthesizer related content so far have actually gone down very well and I noticed the other day that my works have been seeded throughout the industry with Sonic State and Arturia recently using some of my interview material and there are some good comments being made to the content but my point was and is, there's little money to be made... and I base that not on my experience, not on your ability to do better, as I'm sure someone is going to crack it eventually but on the conversations I have had with many of the synth related content authors I have met.

I am soon to release a 2 DVD boxset on the life and works of Jean-Jacques Perrey... It's taken me 3 years to create and there's no way I could ever recoupe the money invested in it but that was not the point, So I do understand where you are coming from.

Peace.

Mal
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